+- CSNbbs (https://csnbbs.com)
+-- Forum: Active Boards (/forum-769.html)
+--- Forum: Lounge (/forum-564.html)
+---- Forum: College Sports and Conference Realignment (/forum-637.html)
+---- Thread: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment (/thread-784151.html)
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-14-2016 07:47 PM
NavyHusker,
That would continue to be the mission. Nothing wrong with a little positive exposure. It could boost "legit" applications for those seeking an officer career in the branch.
vandiver,
I think it does matter. My bet is that if Navy football became an even more popular, even more winning college football team, that applications to the academy would increase and so too would the quality of the applicants.
In fact, in light of what you are saying regarding even keeping the academies around, perhaps it could help save it from closure.
Both,
Your viewpoints are perfectly valid. I'm not questioning their validity.
Question: should Army and Navy be playing Patriot League football?
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commit - NavyHusker - 07-15-2016 09:20 AM
(07-14-2016 07:47 PM)MplsBison Wrote: ... Question: should Army and Navy be playing Patriot League football?
"Should" automatically means matter of opinion, so your mileage may vary.
In my opinion, no we should not be playing Patriot League football. Ignoring the whole football independent since the beginning aspect, Navy football supports the mission of USNA in several ways:
1. USNA's mission statement is "To develop midshipmen morally, mentally, and physically, ... ". The football team helps to develop about 150 team members physically. While this could equally happen in the Patriot League, the following points are more applicable to Patriot League specifically.
2. Participation in athletics is required of all midshipmen (either varsity sports, club sports, or intramural) because of the physical fitness involved but also several leadership aspects, team building, overcoming & dealing with adversity types of character development which are import qualities in developing leaders.
3. Football is a major marketing element which helps to attract interest in both USNA as well as the Navy across the nation for recruiting purposes (not just football). It is in USNA's & the Navy's best interest to do everything we can to remain in the top division of football to continue this exposure and dropping to the Patriot League would significantly impact our exposure.
4. Football is the primary revenue source to fund the 29 other varsity sports at USNA - all of which support the Mission of USNA. Much of the public does not realize that the NCAA sports at USNA are not funded by the government but rather by the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA) which is a 501c3 non-profit. This includes the salaries of all the coaches who are not on an active duty assignment. If we drop to Patriot League, that would be a significant cut to the funding if every sport.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Not all the service academies operate their athletic departments the same way. Air Force for example required approximately $34M in subsidies (aka government funds) to run their athletic department and is the second highest subsidized athletic department in the country behind James Madison. AF is moving towards a model similar to Navy, but cannot support themselves yet while Navy does and has. Similarly Army needed about $12M in subsidized funds to run their athletic department and their football team is an independent.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - ken d - 07-15-2016 10:05 AM
(07-13-2016 12:40 PM)Wedge Wrote: That's a big policy shift if an athlete can use any pro sports contract to change their service commitment from active duty to the reserves. In that article, they use as an example an AFA pitcher chosen in the 31st round of the pro baseball draft. A player chosen in that spot in the draft would start in A ball, spend several years in the minors (if he stuck it out in baseball) and have only a slim chance of ever playing in MLB. If a service academy athlete in that situation can get out of active duty, that's a giant loophole. That's like a football player using an arena-league contract or a basketball player using a contract with a second-division Australian basketball league to shift his service commitment to the reserves.
But maybe the article is trying to make this loophole seem far larger than it really is.
I think you aren't taking into account that these decisions would be made on a case by case basis. Chances are, that AFA pitcher would not get a waiver if he asked for one. A Keenan Reynolds (or Roger Staubach, Joe Bellino, etc) probably would. I think the military has become aware of the public relations value of having these athletes mentioned in a favorable light on national television before they begin their active duty service.
It's a little different for someone like the pro golfer who was mentioned. Unlike football or basketball, where careers are short (and even shorter for those who finish a four year degree before starting them). A pro golfer can continue to compete at the highest level into his forties and beyond. A football player can't. This policy can effectively deal with that.
Frankly, I expect waivers to be relatively rare.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-16-2016 10:09 AM
NavyHusker,
Thanks for sharing your opinion and the good info!
What I just don't understand is how those goals 1-4 are perfectly served by having Navy football-only in the AAC ... and yet would not be served at all and cause you to wholeheartedly reject Navy football-only in the ACC (offset Notre Dame non-football)???
vandiver, feel free to chime in as well.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - shizzle787 - 07-17-2016 08:28 PM
Big mistake. This is an attempt by the military schools to get better athletes, but could result in less committed military men in the field (who originally thought they could go pro).
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies - vandiver49 - 07-17-2016 09:10 PM
(07-16-2016 10:09 AM)MplsBison Wrote: NavyHusker,
Thanks for sharing your opinion and the good info!
What I just don't understand is how those goals 1-4 are perfectly served by having Navy football-only in the AAC ... and yet would not be served at all and cause you to wholeheartedly reject Navy football-only in the ACC (offset Notre Dame non-football)???
vandiver, feel free to chime in as well.
I don't know when Navy Husker was at the yard or became a fan, but I was there during the Charlie Weatherbie era and it was a depressing time because the teams were bad. You are essentially asking is if its better to get guaranteed money in the ACC but be terrible versus relaying on better performance and smaller payouts to make the athletic budget as was done in the AAC.
I personally think that being Wake Forest bad would drive a greater wedge better the average midshipmen and the football team on the yard. Combined with being forced to watch bad CFB 8 times a year for 4 years, it would generate a negative backlash with former and even future alumni and result in decreased donations .
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - NavyHusker - 07-18-2016 09:15 AM
(07-16-2016 10:09 AM)MplsBison Wrote: NavyHusker,
Thanks for sharing your opinion and the good info!
What I just don't understand is how those goals 1-4 are perfectly served by having Navy football-only in the AAC ... and yet would not be served at all and cause you to wholeheartedly reject Navy football-only in the ACC (offset Notre Dame non-football)???
vandiver, feel free to chime in as well.
I am not entirely sure what you are asking. I replied to your question if Army & Navy should play Patriot League football & I said I don't think we should.
Football only in AAC & ACC are completely different questions.
Patriot League would mean less exposure & less revenue as I described. Navy joined the AAC because of the shifting landscape of Div I college football. Leagues began discussing 9 conference games which would make scheduling difficult. Navy was having a difficult enough time scheduling as an independent & BYU & Army are having similar difficulties as well. Obviously ND wouldn't have this problem even without their half ACC arrangement.
Navy joined the Big East which at the time was a BCS league. Things shifted & BE became BE and no longer BCS or now P5. So that was an unfortunate turn of events for Navy.
I'm not sure how the ACC fits into this.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-18-2016 09:12 PM
van,
So you'd be fine with Navy football-only in the ACC, as long as it was competitive?
NH,
I'm not sure why you're saying that you don't understand ... it was a simple extension of the original question.
i) if going DOWN from the AAC to the Patriot is bad, then
ii) what's wrong with going UP from the AAC to the ACC?
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - vandiver49 - 07-19-2016 07:25 AM
(07-18-2016 09:12 PM)MplsBison Wrote: van,
So you'd be fine with Navy football-only in the ACC, as long as it was competitive?
I think what it would take for Navy to be competitive in the ACC would lead to further compromises like the one being discussed, IMO.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commit - NavyHusker - 07-19-2016 09:41 AM
(07-18-2016 09:12 PM)MplsBison Wrote: ...
NH,
I'm not sure why you're saying that you don't understand ... it was a simple extension of the original question.
i) if going DOWN from the AAC to the Patriot is bad, then
ii) what's wrong with going UP from the AAC to the ACC?
Originally I responded to your post about admitting a few more over the average & let football be special.
Quote:I would just say, so then have 1212 new members in the class. Let football be special ... because it's so highly visible and Navy actually has a great thing going with its program. Let that program take the next step. Perhaps even get an ACC invite in football, to offset ND non-football?Personally I think that the Navy football was getting a ton of exposure as an independent.
I didn't address your potential ACC invite because I'm not sure the ACC would really be interested in having Navy join. vandiver doesn't think it would be a good idea. I am not sure if I agree or not, but I definitely agree that I don't want Navy to become a football factory type place as he also stated.
Remember Navy joined the Big East when it was a BCS league so I'm not sure sure that we would automatically turn down a P5 offer. I think that we would seriously consider an offer from the ACC. I don't know that it was ever on the table for consideration.
The then Big East would have been a serious challenge but one that Navy's AD thought we could reasonably manage at the time. I don't know what he thinks about the ACC because there is a balance. We don't want to be a doormat in a better league because that doesn't really provide good exposure. We also don't want to compromise standards for admissions simply to be good in football, doesn't support the mission.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-19-2016 02:30 PM
Sounds like both of you share the same chief, if not sole, concern: making sure Navy football doesn't compromise the "mission" of the academy.
In other words, if it could be guaranteed that Navy football could be competitive in the ACC (as a football-only member), without compromising any values, mission, etc. of the academy, then neither of you would be against it per se.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - vandiver49 - 07-19-2016 06:53 PM
(07-19-2016 02:30 PM)MplsBison Wrote: Sounds like both of you share the same chief, if not sole, concern: making sure Navy football doesn't compromise the "mission" of the academy.
In other words, if it could be guaranteed that Navy football could be competitive in the ACC (as a football-only member), without compromising any values, mission, etc. of the academy, then neither of you would be against it per se.
I'd agree with the bolded. But after ND, Stanford, Duke, GT and other academic CFB programs pick the bone clean of real student athletes, I don't think there would be many left without allowing them out of their commitment.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-19-2016 09:38 PM
And what if the rule was that they can *defer* (not get out of) their commitment, if they have an opportunity to play professional?
Point being: playing in the NFL is something you probably only have four good years to give it a shot. Waiting even two years, while not training, blows it.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commit - NavyHusker - 07-19-2016 11:55 PM
(07-19-2016 09:38 PM)MplsBison Wrote: And what if the rule was that they can *defer* (not get out of) their commitment, if they have an opportunity to play professional?
Point being: playing in the NFL is something you probably only have four good years to give it a shot. Waiting even two years, while not training, blows it.
I started writing a response. But in doing, I kept coming back to your point of only having a small window of opportunity to play in the NFL & the service commitment can wait as it could "blow" that NFL chance.
Since you've posted a few times about this & dedicated some time to this topic, I'd like to ask just a few minutes of your time to watch a few Army-Navy Game intro videos before reading the remainder of my response. They are quite good & should take less than 10 minutes to watch and consider.
2009 - narrated by Harrison Ford
2010 - narrated by William Peterson
2011 - narrated by Gary Sinise
2014 - highlighting Mike Viti
I could go on and have numerous other examples. If you can watch those videos & conclude that a shot in the NFL for a few people means more than the purpose of these institutions, then I guess maybe we will never be able to agree on this. There are 125 Div I FBS teams with no military (or Air Force) service commitment and 3 that do. Ultimately, it comes down to purpose & priorities.
While I enjoy the NFL from time to time, the mission & purpose of my alma mater is something bigger & more important in my humble opinion. I would like to link the exact phrase of a friend of mine who stated this better than I can, but I am digging through links & cannot find it. Basically it said this:
Quote:The purpose of the NFL is to be an escape from the ugliness of the real world.In my opinion, creating a path through the service academies that takes away from their purpose, is not a good thing.
The purpose of the service academies is to develop people who WILL deal with the ugliness of the real world.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - vandiver49 - 07-20-2016 05:28 AM
(07-19-2016 09:38 PM)MplsBison Wrote: And what if the rule was that they can *defer* (not get out of) their commitment, if they have an opportunity to play professional?
Point being: playing in the NFL is something you probably only have four good years to give it a shot. Waiting even two years, while not training, blows it.
I would image that despite deferment, if the NFL career didn't work out, most wouldn't want to fulfill their commitment.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-20-2016 02:57 PM
van,
But that wouldn't be an option. Again, I'm talking about a deferment. Not completely getting out of the commitment. You put your four years in the academy, have a four year NFL career, then you fulfill your commitment after you're done in the league.
NavyHusker,
I think we will have to agree to disagree, though obviously my opinion weighs far less than yours. I simply don't see why letting a few guys a year (if that) sign NFL contracts and therefore defer (not renege!) their commitments, hurts the mission of the academy one iota.
It just seems fair, given the reality of professional football.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - Captain Bearcat - 07-21-2016 08:49 AM
(07-14-2016 09:08 AM)vandiver49 Wrote: At that point, why bother with SA's anymore? Notre Dame is only surpassed by USNA in terms of putting officers in the fleet. There isn't a noticeable difference in the quality of officer nor do you have academy grads staying in the service longer. A ROTC grad is also cheaper for the taxpayer. In a era where people are looking to enact major cuts in the military, having a CFB that ties to emulate minor P5 programs threatens the mission, relevance and ultimately, existence.
I'm not a military man, but I suspect there's a reason that most generals/admirals are from West Point/Annapolis. Even if you're right that the academies don't turn out better junior officers, I suspect they provide more higher-level training than other schools. If they're better at training future admirals & generals, then it's worth the added expense.
So the real question is: does this rule change help to attract better future admirals/generals? Somehow I doubt it. Most people who reach senior military roles knew as a child that they wanted to have that job.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commit - NavyHusker - 07-21-2016 10:39 AM
(07-20-2016 02:57 PM)MplsBison Wrote: van,
But that wouldn't be an option. Again, I'm talking about a deferment. Not completely getting out of the commitment. You put your four years in the academy, have a four year NFL career, then you fulfill your commitment after you're done in the league.
NavyHusker,
I think we will have to agree to disagree, though obviously my opinion weighs far less than yours. I simply don't see why letting a few guys a year (if that) sign NFL contracts and therefore defer (not renege!) their commitments, hurts the mission of the academy one iota.
It just seems fair, given the reality of professional football.
That's fine as I have fellow service academy grads whose opinions are more aligned with yours. They just happen to be wrong.
I suppose that we have differing opinions as to what is fair or not fair:
-You sign a contract upon entering USNA that upon graduation you agree to 5 years active duty and 3 years reserve duty or 8 years active duty but can leave at any point before attending your first class as a junior. Failure to meet this commitment can potentially incur administrative, financial, or required service enlisted in the Navy.
-You take an oath that same day which states
Quote:I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
-You sign a contract that night (often referred to as 2 for 7 night) after attending your first class as a junior that you are now committed to the Navy for the same terms. If you fail to graduate & serve the same potential penalties apply that applied to the contract 2 years prior. (No additional oath at this time.)
-You sign a contract upon acceptance of a commission at graduation that you will serve the same commitment of original contract.
-You take the same oath again as stated above at graduation (and upon every promotion).
So if "the reality of professional football" takes priority to multiple signed contracts & oaths, well then I guess we differ on what the meaning of the word "fair" is. You're entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree with this one.
FWIW, I had a classmate, Max Lane, who quit USNA the spring of his senior year, was drafted by the Patriots & had to financially reimburse the Navy for his time at USNA. I was in the same company as Bob Kuberski who was drafted by the Packers. He was unable to get a release for 2 years, then had to financially reimburse the Navy for the remainder of his service then played for the Packers.
There is a history for this. https://news.usni.org/2015/12/12/from-the-u-s-naval-academy-gridiron-to-the-nfl
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - MplsBison - 07-21-2016 01:47 PM
The contract language can surely be updated, to preclude breaking the contract in the first place, in that special circumstance.
RE: Policy shift frees Service Academies grads to pursue Pro Sports w/o 2 year commitment - NavyHusker - 07-21-2016 01:59 PM
(07-21-2016 01:47 PM)MplsBison Wrote: The contract language can surely be updated, to preclude breaking the contract in the first place, in that special circumstance.The point is not the language in the contract. You said
Quote:It just seems fair, given the reality of professional football.
The Navy invests significant time and resources in developing the individual who volunteers and signs a contract 3 times. How is the Navy requiring the individual to uphold their end of the agreement unfair?
If Heidi Klum actually becomes interested in dating me, it would only be fair for my wife to defer our marriage. It just seems fair, given the reality of a rich supermodel. Same reasoning.