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Widening of Secor - Toledo Football 1st - 06-25-2016 10:11 AM
No, this is not about an OL lineman putting on weight, it is about a much needed project in the area of the university. Someone I was talking to over the weekend was telling me that planning is under way to widen Secor Rd. between Bancroft and Central.
The property is going to come from the Ottawa Hills side, believe it or not. I believe she said 13 homes on Secor will be demo'd. I asked why the Ottawa Hills side? She said that a lot of federal government money will be available if it comes from the O.H. side. Although O.H. will lose some real estate tax revenues, they hope to get some currently empty homes in the village occupied.
A design is not finalized yet; they are evaluating 3 different concepts. It is expected that 1 or 2 roundabouts will be put in--likely at Bancroft, and possibly Kenwood. There may also be a brick wall built on the O.H side to mitigate road noise.
Of course, some people are understandably very much against it, but it is something that so badly needs to be done.
I found a brief story about it HERE.
Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 10:35 AM
Ah. A topic in my wheel house as man that claims orange barrels as friends. Been designing roads for 25 years
This has been needed for some time but I see little reason for a five lane section if you are putting in roundabouts. There are only a couple of cross streets in between and with the discussion of closing some streets the left turn lanes are even less necessary
Ottawa Hills might consider moving some of the houses to maintain the tax base. And blocking off the streets would make the traffic on those streets much less thus increasing property values
When I lived in Toledo I always thought Toledo should do on their own. OH residents are never going to buy into this. A small widening on the Toledo side between Kenwood and Indian to get 4 11 foot lanes. No reason for any more than 11 feet. If OH backs out stripe it two NB and one SB with a TWLTL
There is enough room for a good improvement north of Kenwood within the current RW
The houses at Kenwood and Secor are close. Might be tough to size a roundabout there.
Long time needed
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Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 10:40 AM
So with the constant capital improvement fund transfer year after year how does Toledo plan to pay for it? Over $100 million dollars have been transferred over the years with very little to show for it. Maggie Thurber just wrote a great blog on topic
https://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2016/06/thurbers-thoughts-is-back.html?spref=fb&m=1
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Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 10:42 AM
I am sure UT is driving this. Entries to campus need improving and access is not great with Bancroft and Secor a long time bottleneck
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Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 10:53 AM
Not a new idea
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19711219&id=rgswAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4gEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7189,2147482&hl=en
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Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 10:57 AM
Neighborhood mtg comments
http://www.old-orchard-toledo.com/pdf/20160526_secor_minutes.pdf
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RE: Widening of Secor - eastisbest - 06-25-2016 11:04 AM
That section of Secor is two lanes in and two lanes out (crowded yes) and that's not going to change with a widening. I don't see anything badly needed here. Someone saw an opportunity for a money grab and they're taking the pork.
Bancroft/Secor. That can be a slow interchange, waiting for lights with no cars but in this case, I think a roundabout might look pretty but I think it will make traffic worse.
Traffic pattern is primarily not symmetrical at that intersection, not even close. It is primarily (morning) Secor S straight or Secor S left onto Bancroft E. It's the evening that will get messier with a roundabout as those two patterns reverse. At present it has two lanes (one Secor N (straight) and the other Bancroft W (left) into two lanes (Secor North). Two lanes to two lanes. With a roundabout both patterns will be crowding the outside of the roundabout. They can put in a two lane roundabout but that inside will not be able to exit onto Secor North without merging with Bancroft W on the outside lane. And in a widening, which will encourage faster traffic and...accident heaven and a really bad slinky effect.
Hope they do A LOT of simulations based upon traffic numbers on the morning and afternoon commutes.
North entrance near the via-duct and another on-campus in area one, now those a bad bottlenecks with traffic coming all directions, where a roundabout might work very well.
Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 11:23 AM
The nine foot lanes are the problem. Well below any minimum standard. That is what causes the sideswipe accidents. Improve lane width and those go away
Roundabout at Kenwood would be problematic due to low volumes on Kenwood. It would function as a thru intersection for Secor too often
Proper roundabout design can mitigate the problems u discuss. I do not have volumes in front of me but often times some parts of roundabout have different number of lanes to manage those issues
Since there are not a lot of roundabouts in Toledo, I hope that the City has a designer on board with experience in designing them. There are a lot of nuances that need an experienced hand
People freak over a small backup at roundabouts at times. But in general a properly designed roundabout has less overall delay and is much safer. VERY few fatalities have occurred at roundabouts. All right angle crashes are eliminated
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RE: Widening of Secor - eastisbest - 06-25-2016 02:58 PM
"nuances" lol, you running for an office?
Good, I'll vote for you, just never use that word again when trying to sell an ugly duck.Do we have stats on these number of accidents? Never seen one or been held up by an accident on that stretch in decades of traveling that route, but that's not to say they don't occur. I've personally never had a problem. What fatalities are we talking about? Nothing is broken here.
2 lanes = 2 lanes. That doesn't move more cars.
Campus is shrinking, fewer people not more headed that way.
Population shift is HEAVILY from the West, not the North. P-Burg/Maumee, New Sylvania, Scott Park, all West or South.
Roundabouts are hell on pedestrian traffic and these are neighborhood, heavily biked intersections.
The heavily asymmetric traffic patterns wastes half the roundabout,. morning turns are heavily 1/2 to 3/4, not an average of 1/2 and evening turns MERGEs TWO LANES OF THE ROUNDABOUT or they have an extremely congested one lane roundabout. At non-peak, nice. At the time it is really needed, when events are let out or commutes begin, there will be MORE accidents regardless someone used the term "proper design."
And who doesn't throw out the "'proper' design will solve" argument when they see $$$? Proper design, truly proper design requires a need met by an appropriate action. I don't think either applies here just because a few 90 year olds feel crowded on a street.
Campus is not a motivator here. Jobs, money maybe but not moving people to campus from that direction.
Engineers don't fix things that aren't broken. Widening that section of Secor is not going to move more traffic. It's been fine for a 100 years and there's been no and won't be any significant population change in that aging direction so.... This is a cash cow, nothing more.
Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 03:27 PM
Before spewing nonsense and attacking a profession do a little research
Do I agree with the notion of a roundabout in this location, not entirely. Pedestrian issue you discuss is valid but the size of the intersection as it is does not serve them either
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RE: Widening of Secor - eastisbest - 06-25-2016 04:01 PM
(06-25-2016 03:27 PM)indianasniff Wrote: Before spewing nonsense and attacking a profession do a little research
Do I agree with the notion of a roundabout in this location, not entirely. Pedestrian issue you discuss is valid but the size of the intersection as it is does not serve them either
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Before accusing someone of "spewing nonsense" and "attacking a profession," first know what profession they're involved in and second, counter the argument, don't call it "nonsense." What you did is a sure sign of someone that is defensive and doesn't have an argument.
Now I used numbers and situations to reason my post, not wishful thinking. Hopefully you can do better than to counter with "nonsense."
You have something, anything to debate that pedestrians are not served by the present configuration? It seems to work well towards those crossing Secor on either the N or the S and Bancroft on the E. There is essentially no traffic crossing Bancroft on the W.
For a multi-lane roundabout, 150-300 ft diameter is recommended. No, I haven't measured. Google may is my friend today. That intersection is pushing the lower limit, without grabbing properties from all four major corners and even with that, doesn't seem to have what it needs and still have safe clearance from the properties that remain, for those cars that you know, don't quite make the turn. Add in, it's not a four way, it's a five way intersection, an additional complication.
Roundabouts at their best, alleviate about 20% of the traffic, WHEN IT IS WELL BALANCED TRAFFIC. That means, the 90, 180 and 270 turns occur in nearly equal proportions, even better if the 90 is predominant. They have best effect for intermittent traffic fed by reasonably long stretches without lights. That is not what occurs at that intersection. It is predominantly 180 and 270. The only right turn of note is W Bancroft to N Secor and that's only an issue in the evening commute. One property and a right turn lane might alleviate this "problem" which has not been a concern for 100 years.
MOST of the traffic at that intersection is a 270 degree turn merging with a 180. That's not good.
SCENARIO (most people do not refer to this as "nonsense") In the morning and somewhat on game days, S Secor to E Bancroft is the back-up and it conflicts with S Secor to N Secor. Lights control this, slow the traffic and keep the left turns off N Secor from getting t-boned by the traffic coming straight from the other direction. With a roundabout, you either force one to the inside and the other to the outside of the roundabout. Because this is a 270 competing with a 180 as opposed to two 180, no matter who gets assigned inside and who outside, they have to cross. That's an accident, particularly in that tight space. The other scenario is that they merge which works if the PATIENT traffic can be patterned "intermittent" instead of "pulse" as occurs due to traffic light. Unfortunately, that is exactly the pattern set up by the lights are Dorr-Secor and Central Secor, with not the distance for it to disperse. This doesn't not necessarily increase throughput so much as it just keeps everyone moving, presuming they're not new to roundabouts.
As I posted originally, I hope they get a really good simulator before making this decision. Roundabouts are not designed for that situation. I think a roundabout in that location will slow traffic and be more dangerous.
RE: Widening of Secor - Toledo Football 1st - 06-25-2016 07:19 PM
(06-25-2016 11:23 AM)indianasniff Wrote: The nine foot lanes are the problem. Well below any minimum standard. That is what causes the sideswipe accidents. Improve lane width and those go away
Roundabout at Kenwood would be problematic due to low volumes on Kenwood. It would function as a thru intersection for Secor too often
Proper roundabout design can mitigate the problems u discuss. I do not have volumes in front of me but often times some parts of roundabout have different number of lanes to manage those issues
Since there are not a lot of roundabouts in Toledo, I hope that the City has a designer on board with experience in designing them. There are a lot of nuances that need an experienced hand
People freak over a small backup at roundabouts at times. But in general a properly designed roundabout has less overall delay and is much safer. VERY few fatalities have occurred at roundabouts. All right angle crashes are eliminated
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I think it makes sense at Bancroft. Not so sure about Kenwood either. The benefits would be that you wouldn't have a light there and it would serve to slow speeds down a little through there. Right now, I don't think traffic gets backed up too badly south side of Central. North of Central, of course it is usually bad during the day. I wonder whether a roundabout at Kenwood would increase backups south of Central. That wouldn't be helpful. A light at Kenwood might help to regulate the situation up at Central.
RE: Widening of Secor - eastisbest - 06-25-2016 07:32 PM
Secor at Central heading north-bound to 475 can take a couple lights at the right time of day. Is that worth this expense? Shrug I think the bigger issue there is the lefts. But again, worth the expense give all the other issues? Maybe. IMO a much better case can be made for Central-Secor than for Bancroft-Secor. It has the type of traffic patterns that would benefit from a rotary and at least that intersection wouldn't require a whole neighborhood re-do but it also probably wouldn't grab that money you were talking about. It's not part of OH. Also, there are some businesses rather close to the corners, not leaving a whole lot of working room. Big intersection though, maybe big enough.
Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 08:23 PM
The one thing we can agree on is that in all likelihood the residents of OH will never agree to this. Toledo should develop a project independently
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Widening of Secor - indianasniff - 06-25-2016 08:27 PM
Here is a really good article that discusses roundabouts and explains the points well
http://www.mikeontraffic.com/why-build-roundabouts/
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RE: Widening of Secor - Toledo Football 1st - 06-25-2016 11:55 PM
(06-25-2016 08:23 PM)indianasniff Wrote: The one thing we can agree on is that in all likelihood the residents of OH will never agree to this. Toledo should develop a project independently
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Well, the person who related this to me gave me the impression that it sounds like this is going to happen. Some of the residents of OH may not agree to it, but they may not be able to beat city hall. The big federal money only drops if it happens on the OH side. The only way the City of Toledo buys up 19 properties and goes it alone is if Jeep wants to put an assembly line there.
RE: Widening of Secor - RangerRocket - 06-26-2016 07:28 AM
(06-25-2016 11:55 PM)Toledo Football 1st Wrote: [quote='indianasniff' pid='13353862' dateline='1466904215']
The only way the City of Toledo buys up 19 properties and goes it alone is if Jeep wants to put an assembly line there.
... or a Metropark
RE: Widening of Secor - RocketJeff - 06-26-2016 08:20 AM
I actually like the round-abouts in Waterville/Monclova and Sylvania areas. I'll defer to Indianasniff's expertise that they can be properly designed to work at intersections along Secor, but I just can't envision it. As for the lane widening, it makes more sense to go towards OH because you'd be having to acquire fewer homes. There must be over 50 houses on the Old Orchard side, although if they did that, residents on Densmore would get a deeper backyard. Another solution would be to do to Secor what they did to Jackman and make it one lane in each direction with a turn lane or boulevard in the middle. I will say that currently those lanes are so narrow that if a city bus or truck are traveling Secor, they are taking both lanes and anyone trying to pass are crossing a double-yellow line to do so. Most people have learned to navigate that street be driving illegally and not getting into accidents, but it's still not very safe. On the other hand, this is probably the last generation that will own its own cars and drive itself.
RE: Widening of Secor - RocketJeff - 06-26-2016 08:23 AM
(06-26-2016 07:28 AM)RangerRocket Wrote:(06-25-2016 11:55 PM)Toledo Football 1st Wrote: [quote='indianasniff' pid='13353862' dateline='1466904215']
The only way the City of Toledo buys up 19 properties and goes it alone is if Jeep wants to put an assembly line there.
... or a Metropark
RE: Widening of Secor - Toledo Football 1st - 06-26-2016 10:04 AM
It is dangerous. I dislike going through there, but it is such a main route. The first accident I had in my life was along there. Nothing serious, a drunk wandered out of his lane and scraped the car a little. Hopefully the project gets done sooner than later. They could make a really nice corridor through there with some decorative lamp posts and plantings. Would be nice to see some UT style stonework in the area near Bancroft.