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Why college tuition is so high. - blunderbuss - 12-24-2015 09:43 AM
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - VA49er - 12-28-2015 11:10 AM
No one forced them to pay a dime.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - gsu95 - 12-28-2015 11:15 AM
I believe in affordable college. I also believe in a draft. Make everyone serve, then give them money to go to school or spend how they want --
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - Kaplony - 12-28-2015 11:42 AM
(12-28-2015 11:15 AM)gsu95 Wrote: I believe in affordable college. I also believe in a draft. Make everyone serve, then give them money to go to school or spend how they want --
If you speak with anyone who served in the military before and after the draft ended you'll be hard pressed to get anyone who agrees with you. The quality of our military is far better with an all-volunteer force in every single way.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - HeartOfDixie - 12-28-2015 12:11 PM
I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - Bull_In_Exile - 12-28-2015 12:25 PM
(12-28-2015 11:15 AM)gsu95 Wrote: I believe in affordable college. I also believe in a draft. Make everyone serve, then give them money to go to school or spend how they want --
Contrary to popular belief most people have access to affordable college.
Tuition and fees at the UofM Twin Cities campus is 13,790 per year. Throw in another 3 K for books and other misc expenses.
That means if you do nothing but live at home and take loans for everything 4 years is 67K. But wait there's more. If you do your first year or two at a community college you can save about 18K. So now we are down to about 50K, assuming you have not put one dollar of your own money in.
Now if you work a minimum wage job, live at home, and buy your own books / bus pass you are looking at saving another 6K. Lets call it 44K total.
lets go find a summer job flipping burgers 20 hours a week. That's another two grand per year you can take off. Now we are at 36K.
Finally lets assume you find something four 4-10 hours a week on campus job or near campus job. 3.5K more per year off the loan. You would graduate with 22K in loans. Or about the price of your average new car.
This is assuming of course, that you did not save any money in your last few years of High School and get zero help other than room and board from your family.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - Bull_In_Exile - 12-28-2015 12:26 PM
(12-28-2015 12:11 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
I think the best answer is the endless pile of money being thrown into the system so that a school can set raise their tuition 10% and lending institutions will hand over the cash.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - SuperFlyBCat - 12-28-2015 12:30 PM
(12-28-2015 12:26 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:11 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
I think the best answer is the endless pile of money being thrown into the system so that a school can set raise their tuition 10% and lending institutions will hand over the cash.
If access to borrowed money was stripped away, you would see declining enrollment and tuition.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - Bull_In_Exile - 12-28-2015 12:41 PM
(12-28-2015 12:30 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:26 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:11 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
I think the best answer is the endless pile of money being thrown into the system so that a school can set raise their tuition 10% and lending institutions will hand over the cash.
If access to borrowed money was stripped away, you would see declining enrollment and tuition.
You would first see the overpriced privates dry up. Then the "college" tier of State systems would get hit. The top universities in each state would survive and might even hold enrollment.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - SuperFlyBCat - 12-28-2015 12:43 PM
(12-28-2015 12:41 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:30 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:26 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:11 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
I think the best answer is the endless pile of money being thrown into the system so that a school can set raise their tuition 10% and lending institutions will hand over the cash.
If access to borrowed money was stripped away, you would see declining enrollment and tuition.
You would first see the overpriced privates dry up. Then the "college" tier of State systems would get hit. The top universities in each state would survive and might even hold enrollment.
Yep no doubt about it.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - EigenEagle - 12-28-2015 03:39 PM
I can sum it up in a few bullet points.
1. No incentive to keep costs low.
2. Huge credit lines the government hands out unconditionally to financially illiterate 17 year olds
3. The belief of many high school students that you have to go to a school with a name to get a degree worth a crap (creates a positive feedback loop with #1).
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - VA49er - 12-29-2015 01:03 AM
(12-28-2015 12:30 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:26 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:(12-28-2015 12:11 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
I think the best answer is the endless pile of money being thrown into the system so that a school can set raise their tuition 10% and lending institutions will hand over the cash.
If access to borrowed money was stripped away, you would see declining enrollment and tuition.
Yep, we've already seen the reason for high tuition. It was demonstrated very well during the housing crisis.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - Hitch - 12-29-2015 09:56 AM
Yanking the unlimited pool of federal loans would do away with the online schools first that rely on that money for their business model (phoenix, liberty, devry, etc). Then you'd see a decline in "big 3" graduate program costs (MBA, LAW, MD). Then lower-tier state schools and private schools would follow because they don't have the endowments or the donor bases to provide the necessary scholarships, then the flagships would follow several years later. The absolutely last group to lower prices would be the top-tier privates for several reasons:
1. the ROI on their degrees is still strong, even at the high price
2. they have enough funding to drop the actual price paid for most students except the most wealthy who don't care anyway
3. middle-class people will take private loans to cover the cost of these "dream schools"
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - miko33 - 12-29-2015 10:22 AM
(12-29-2015 09:56 AM)Hitch Wrote: Yanking the unlimited pool of federal loans would do away with the online schools first that rely on that money for their business model (phoenix, liberty, devry, etc). Then you'd see a decline in "big 3" graduate program costs (MBA, LAW, MD). Then lower-tier state schools and private schools would follow because they don't have the endowments or the donor bases to provide the necessary scholarships, then the flagships would follow several years later. The absolutely last group to lower prices would be the top-tier privates for several reasons:
1. the ROI on their degrees is still strong, even at the high price
2. they have enough funding to drop the actual price paid for most students except the most wealthy who don't care anyway
3. middle-class people will take private loans to cover the cost of these "dream schools"
I agree with the overall tenor of your post but disagree with the details. Here is what I think will happen:
- Small private colleges get hit hard first - like the Oberlins, Middlebury's, etc. In particular, small religious affiliated schools that have little brand awareness outside a tight geographical region will suffer.
- The most expensive public universities will have to drop tuition rates for the "commodity majors". Med schools, Engineering schools and the hard sciences will likely have some pricing power, but the business degrees, MBAs, JDs and most of the colleges of arts and sciences will have to drop tuition rates
- Online schools will pare back costs too; however, they can absorb these hits easier because their model does not include nearly as much physical assets to maintain. IMHO, they can (and will) gain market share in a shrinking market.
- I expect to see the smaller community schools and smaller state schools with the already lower tuition to start seeing modest growth if the bigger name publics refuse to drop rates.
- Trade schools will flourish as the market place prices out the commodity type 4 year degrees that the excess students flock towards while technical skills are valued.
- Elite privates will see no changes. They have vast pricing power, and wealthy people will still flock to them to maintain access to the power structures in our country.
All of this assumes that 1) Consumers are aware that many classes and degrees are being commoditized, 2) Consumers will cry "uncle" and look at alternatives to obtaining post high school skills and 3) Consumers will read the market successfully and realize that the trades are being more highly valued while a number of bachelor degrees are being devalued, i.e. art history majors becoming baristas.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - TheDancinMonarch - 12-29-2015 10:40 AM
(12-28-2015 12:11 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: I think the best answer would be the arms race between schools.
Isn't that called college football and basketball?
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - Love and Honor - 12-29-2015 11:24 AM
1. Wide availability of federally subsidized loans.
2. State pension and health spending have crowded out higher ed funding.
3. Increased demand from international students, mostly from China and India.
4. Minimum wage, regulations, and tax policy have effectively eliminated unskilled labor, and that has people looking to college when they wouldn't otherwise.
5. Related to 4, general disdain for trade schools discourages high school graduates from attending those instead of college.
6. Administrative bloat and the arms race for newer student facilities.
7. Useless majors.
8. For-profit institutions.
What to do about it? Eliminate most (if not all) of 1. Reduce state-level pension obligations in 2 to make room for increased funding to a slight degree. I don't think we can do much about 3 without putting a quota on international enrollment (bad idea imo), so reforming the immigration process to allow them stay past graduation would at least keep their human capital here instead of abroad. Eliminating bureaucratic waste and eliminating the minimum wage through the negative income tax would help 4, along with reducing taxes overall. Then increase trade school funding in 5 and get high school advisors to stop looking down upon them. I think 6 and 7 must be addressed at the state level, it'll take legislatures to pass measures to limit wasteful spending or funding for low-demand majors. And I wouldn't outlaw 8, but someone who knows more about higher ed probably has an idea of how to reduce student debt at the likes of ITT Tech and Devry.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - miko33 - 12-29-2015 11:34 AM
(12-29-2015 10:22 AM)miko33 Wrote:(12-29-2015 09:56 AM)Hitch Wrote: Yanking the unlimited pool of federal loans would do away with the online schools first that rely on that money for their business model (phoenix, liberty, devry, etc). Then you'd see a decline in "big 3" graduate program costs (MBA, LAW, MD). Then lower-tier state schools and private schools would follow because they don't have the endowments or the donor bases to provide the necessary scholarships, then the flagships would follow several years later. The absolutely last group to lower prices would be the top-tier privates for several reasons:
1. the ROI on their degrees is still strong, even at the high price
2. they have enough funding to drop the actual price paid for most students except the most wealthy who don't care anyway
3. middle-class people will take private loans to cover the cost of these "dream schools"
I agree with the overall tenor of your post but disagree with the details. Here is what I think will happen:
- Small private colleges get hit hard first - like the Oberlins, Middlebury's, etc. In particular, small religious affiliated schools that have little brand awareness outside a tight geographical region will suffer.
- The most expensive public universities will have to drop tuition rates for the "commodity majors". Med schools, Engineering schools and the hard sciences will likely have some pricing power, but the business degrees, MBAs, JDs and most of the colleges of arts and sciences will have to drop tuition rates
- Online schools will pare back costs too; however, they can absorb these hits easier because their model does not include nearly as much physical assets to maintain. IMHO, they can (and will) gain market share in a shrinking market.
- I expect to see the smaller community schools and smaller state schools with the already lower tuition to start seeing modest growth if the bigger name publics refuse to drop rates.
- Trade schools will flourish as the market place prices out the commodity type 4 year degrees that the excess students flock towards while technical skills are valued.
- Elite privates will see no changes. They have vast pricing power, and wealthy people will still flock to them to maintain access to the power structures in our country.
All of this assumes that 1) Consumers are aware that many classes and degrees are being commoditized, 2) Consumers will cry "uncle" and look at alternatives to obtaining post high school skills and 3) Consumers will read the market successfully and realize that the trades are being more highly valued while a number of bachelor degrees are being devalued, i.e. art history majors becoming baristas.
One thing I wanted to add about online schools: I wasn't referring to ITT Tech, DeVry, etc. I was thinking about the online programs developed by accredited schools. For example, there are a number of MBA options you can take online like these:
http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/top/online-mba-programs/
I found out a lot of these programs are charging students out of state tuition if you are located in another state. I fully expect this to change, because I think a lot more schools will be moving this route for more courses. Granted, a certain amount of on campus time will be needed - I would assume - but that would be a small component of the overall time spent obtaining the degree.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - EigenEagle - 12-29-2015 11:36 AM
(12-29-2015 10:22 AM)miko33 Wrote: All of this assumes that 1) Consumers are aware that many classes and degrees are being commoditized, 2) Consumers will cry "uncle" and look at alternatives to obtaining post high school skills and 3) Consumers will read the market successfully and realize that the trades are being more highly valued while a number of bachelor degrees are being devalued, i.e. art history majors becoming baristas.
This is key. High school students and their parents have to be smarter consumers in the higher ed market. Part of that is acknowledging that you don't need to go to state flagship and can do just as well going to lesser-known regional school.
Another key is stopping the rating of high schools based on the percentage of students who attend a four-year college.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - gsu95 - 12-30-2015 10:53 AM
(12-28-2015 11:42 AM)Kaplony Wrote:(12-28-2015 11:15 AM)gsu95 Wrote: I believe in affordable college. I also believe in a draft. Make everyone serve, then give them money to go to school or spend how they want --
If you speak with anyone who served in the military before and after the draft ended you'll be hard pressed to get anyone who agrees with you. The quality of our military is far better with an all-volunteer force in every single way.
Maybe, maybe not. I tend to disagree, but I didn't serve during the draft era. My dad did, (he enlisted and went on to be a lifer) but we've never discussed whether the Army would be better off with a draft. I'll ask him
I do think of the draft as more of a moral thing. If we're truly one nation, then shouldn't all of us run the risk of dying to defend it?
By compulsory service, I'm not talking strictly military, by the way. Service could also be in VISTA or Peace Corps or a new CCC, maybe even a national police/fire/EMT service so those who wanted to go in that direction would have that option. But the key thing for me is national service. And then, after that, free college at public institutions or tuition assistance for private ones.
Just a thought.
RE: Why college tuition is so high. - miko33 - 12-30-2015 11:07 AM
(12-30-2015 10:53 AM)gsu95 Wrote:(12-28-2015 11:42 AM)Kaplony Wrote:(12-28-2015 11:15 AM)gsu95 Wrote: I believe in affordable college. I also believe in a draft. Make everyone serve, then give them money to go to school or spend how they want --
If you speak with anyone who served in the military before and after the draft ended you'll be hard pressed to get anyone who agrees with you. The quality of our military is far better with an all-volunteer force in every single way.
Maybe, maybe not. I tend to disagree, but I didn't serve during the draft era. My dad did, (he enlisted and went on to be a lifer) but we've never discussed whether the Army would be better off with a draft. I'll ask him
I do think of the draft as more of a moral thing. If we're truly one nation, then shouldn't all of us run the risk of dying to defend it?
By compulsory service, I'm not talking strictly military, by the way. Service could also be in VISTA or Peace Corps or a new CCC, maybe even a national police/fire/EMT service so those who wanted to go in that direction would have that option. But the key thing for me is national service. And then, after that, free college at public institutions or tuition assistance for private ones.
Just a thought.
I think patriots have to be more nuanced than that. Do you love your country because of what it is or what it's supposed to represent? IMHO, the original intent was to embrace the idea of the United States as a bastion of liberty and rights that are supposed to be independent of government. I think people take the ideals we should have and just assume that our country always operates like that. Therefore, they transfer that good will to the country itself - as if just being American is a special mandate that no one else was blessed with. There lies the risks of nationalism, and assuming that the U.S. does no wrong in the world or at least relatively speaking it's the least wrong vs all other countries by its actions.
This is why compulsion is never a good way to promote love of country and service to it.