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Flag Comes Down from Capital - Carolina_Low_Country - 06-23-2015 07:05 AM
Since the NCAA had banned planed post season events in S. Carolina because of the confederate flag at the capital. How quickly does this rule now get changed and how quickly is a bowl announced for Columbia or Charleston?
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Chappy - 06-23-2015 07:39 AM
Wasn't somebody trying to do a Myrtle Beach bowl?
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - MarshallHerdFanz - 06-23-2015 08:30 AM
Like I've said before my dream car is the General Lee. I will own one and have the flag on there. Other then the car the flag means nothing to me.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - quo vadis - 06-23-2015 08:32 AM
(06-23-2015 07:05 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote: Since the NCAA had banned planed post season events in S. Carolina because of the confederate flag at the capital. How quickly does this rule now get changed and how quickly is a bowl announced for Columbia or Charleston?
My understanding of SC law is that while the Governor's press conference made for great symbolic theater (and btw, I do think the flag should come down), the reality is that 2/3 of the legislature has to vote to bring the flag down for it to actually come down.
And since a LOT of white people in SC want it to stay, that may not be easy.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - msm96wolf - 06-23-2015 08:41 AM
While I believe in one's right to have a confederate flag, I do think it is logical thing for a state government not to be flying it. My concern is it will now go to the other extreme of demanding every confederate monument be taken down which would be a historical tragedy. The Civil War is part of this country's history. It saddens me how many Americans are so misinformed about it and want to remove any mention of it because it is not politically correct in some people's mind.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - ohio1317 - 06-23-2015 08:42 AM
If the NCAA is saying it needs to come down, then I say the NCAA needs to go down. They've already overstepped their bounds by deciding what mascots they like and don't and by potentially punishing all schools in a state because they don't like a state law on religious freedom.
They aren't supposed to be a political institution. If that's what they are going to be, then I'm going to consider treating them as such and avoiding things that generate their income (or at least write to advertisers threatening to not buy their product because of their affiliation).
As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - quo vadis - 06-23-2015 08:57 AM
(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote: As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Titans3775 - 06-23-2015 09:06 AM
(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote: As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.
It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Rube Dali - 06-23-2015 09:13 AM
Mississippi legislators are also considering altering their state flag, one which has the "stars and bars" as parrt of the design. But Phil Bryant, the governor, thinks the move will be overturned by initiative from the voters there. Indeed, someone is trying to get an initiative on the ballot for 2016 that constituionalizes the design. That initiative also includes making Mississippi a Christian State and make English the official language.
(Since this is a college sports forum, this initiative would also replace the bear mascot at Ole Miss with Colonel Reb and protect five schools(Alcorn State, Delta State, Jackson State, Mississippi Valley State and Mississippi University for Women) from merging with one of the larger schools or with each other.)
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - bullet - 06-23-2015 09:15 AM
(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote: As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.
Wonder how long before they start trying to force 6 Flags in Missouri, Texas and Georgia to become 5 Flags?
I agree with the above posters that it really doesn't need to be flying on state grounds and the NCAA has no business poking its nose into politics. But its a matter for South Carolina to decide, not Indianapolis or Boston or Seattle.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - bullet - 06-23-2015 09:17 AM
(06-23-2015 09:13 AM)Rube Dali Wrote: Mississippi legislators are also considering altering their state flag, one which has the "stars and bars" as parrt of the design. But Phil Bryant, the governor, thinks the move will be overturned by initiative from the voters there. Indeed, someone is trying to get an initiative on the ballot for 2016 that constituionalizes the design. That initiative also includes making Mississippi a Christian State and make English the official language.
(Since this is a college sports forum, this initiative would also replace the bear mascot at Ole Miss with Colonel Reb and protect five schools(Alcorn State, Delta State, Jackson State, Mississippi Valley State and Mississippi University for Women) from merging with one of the larger schools or with each other.)
I know there has been talk of merging the Women's college with MSU. Has there been talk of merging Delta St. and Miss. Valley St. or of closing Alcorn and merging with Jackson St.?
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - IceJus10 - 06-23-2015 09:23 AM
Psssst The Confederate States lost the war, their flag should NOT be flying at ANY active government building. It should fly at Confederate cemeteries, memorials and on display in museums with a story of the good and bad for all to remember fully informed.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - quo vadis - 06-23-2015 09:23 AM
(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote: As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.
It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.
I know it is no longer flying above the capitol building, but IMO its current location is still too much. It's still flying on the grounds of the capitol building. It's in a very prominent location right in front of the capitol building, arguably even more visible than the official flags flying on top.
It should come down, and be displayed behind a glass case inside the building, as part of a history exhibit.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Frank the Tank - 06-23-2015 09:26 AM
(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote: As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.
It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.
I'm sorry, but it isn't even valid in this context. This is the equivalent of a German World War II memorial honoring fallen soldiers (which exist) flying a flag with the swastika for historical purposes. The Germans don't do that even though it's a huge part of their history because they have the common sense to know that it's an offensive symbol throughout the world. I know that is something a lot of Southerners try to deny with claims that the flag is just about heritage and other supposedly neutral arguments, but the Confederate flag is perceived throughout the rest of the United States and the world as a racist symbol just as the swastika. Period. Maybe it's not the fault of those who are truly just Civil War buffs or want to display Southern pride, but the Confederate flag has been co-opted by despicable groups in the same manner as they've adopted Hitler's symbols and there's simply no turning back.
As quo noted, there is a place for displaying such symbols for the purpose of documenting history, such as a museum, but a symbol that (whether many Southerners want to admit it or not) is very clearly looked as a racist has no place at a state-sponsored memorial (much less one that's actually on the grounds of the seat of the state government). There is quite a difference between honoring fallen soldiers and putting emphasis on a symbol that has become synonymous with racist and segregationist ideologies.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - bitcruncher - 06-23-2015 09:28 AM
(06-23-2015 07:05 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote: Since the NCAA had banned planed post season events in S. Carolina because of the confederate flag at the capital. How quickly does this rule now get changed and how quickly is a bowl announced for Columbia or Charleston?Considering it only took 150 years for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from the State Capital building, I think the rule should get changed around 2265, and the 300th anniversary of the Confederacy's defeat.
I don't think they should be praised for doing something that took severe financial penalties to initiate after a century and a half of struggle. Let them struggle for a while, like the next 150 years.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Carolina_Low_Country - 06-23-2015 09:30 AM
There is a flag of the Confederacy that still flys in Greenville, NC and done by the city not going to say where may cause people to want to take it down. But I guarantee 100% of the people who would be against such a thing have no idea it is a confederate flag and obviously does not bother them but if someone in the media told everyone about it and its location probably would be come a big deal.
The problem with the confederate flag is that it was taken over by the KKK who also use Nazi flags and other things. I do not understand these people and comparing the confederacy to nazism is a little stretch. Most people fly the confederate flag in the south as a way of showing southern pride not racism. However people who want to show racism use the flag also and that is where the conflict occurs. I know a lot of people that use the first confederate flag to not cause that problem. Going back to the civil war most of the people fighting for the south had no slaves and fought more for their state (back then you were a Virginian or Georgian or Carolinian before an American) then slavery. After the civil war we became the united states of america and not these united states of america. You also have to remember too that most of the people fighting for the union and had no opinion on slavery and most where also racist. They only fought because they got drafted with most being immigrants from other countries. The only people who really wanted the war to happen were really rich plantation owners who were making a killing off of crops with slave work. If they lost their ability to use slaves as workers they would not be able to make a profit so they went to war (they had all the influence on the state governments) to protect their gold mine. Cities like Charleston, Atlanta, and New Orleans and states like Alabama,Virginia, Mississippi, etc who would be extremely hurt economically if slavery was abolished where the first ones to succeed to protect their way of life aka money making system. Most of the states like Tennessee, North Carolina, Florida, etc. really joined the confederacy based more on location then actually wanting to succeed. Most of Tennessee and North Carolina where under Union control during the war then they were under confederate control. Also a lot of counties in the mountains in the south flew US flags during the war. After war the economic depression in the south was ten times worst then it would have been if slavery had just ended causing the south to take over 100 years to even catch up back with the north economically. So anyone who tells you the civil war was not about slavery they are wrong, it was about slavery but more about money. Slavery would have eventually ended over time when new technology came out to that made farming cheaper using equipment then slaves. You have to remember slavery in the south was fastly declining after the american revolution until the cotton gin was invented.
Anyway back to topic I still think you see Columbia or Charleston get a bowl. South Carolina is the only deep south state without a bowl game. I imagine you will also see Columbia and/or Charleston trying to host an SEC or ACC baseball or basketball conference championship and NCAA regionals in the future. North Charleston coliseum might get some renovations to make it attractive for NCAA and Conference championships,Columbia arena is on par now. This change could really bring some money into the state.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - quo vadis - 06-23-2015 09:34 AM
(06-23-2015 09:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:(06-23-2015 09:06 AM)Titans3775 Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:(06-23-2015 08:42 AM)ohio1317 Wrote: As for the flag itself, the Civil War was American vs. American and the Confederacy is a part of our history and culture, especially southern and should be treated as such.
I agree about the confederacy being a part of our history/culture, but the proper way to reflect that is by having the flag in a place like a state museum. It shouldn't be flying on the grounds of the state house. Only "active" flags, flags that reflect the current affiliation of the state, should be in that location.
It is flying on the Confederate memorial on the capitol grounds. Perfectly justified location for the flag. They would only have a case if it was still above the capitol building as it was in 2000.
I'm sorry, but it isn't even valid in this context. This is the equivalent of a German World War II memorial honoring fallen soldiers (which exist) flying a flag with the swastika for historical purposes. The Germans don't do that even though it's a huge part of their history because they have the common sense to know that it's an offensive symbol throughout the world. I know that is something a lot of Southerners try to deny with claims that the flag is just about heritage and other supposedly neutral arguments, but the Confederate flag is perceived throughout the rest of the United States and the world as a racist symbol just as the swastika. Period. Maybe it's not the fault of those who are truly just Civil War buffs or want to display Southern pride, but the Confederate flag has been co-opted by despicable groups in the same manner as they've adopted Hitler's symbols and there's simply no turning back.
As quo noted, there is a place for displaying such symbols for the purpose of documenting history, such as a museum, but a symbol that (whether many Southerners want to admit it or not) is very clearly looked as a racist has no place at a state-sponsored memorial (much less one that's actually on the grounds of the seat of the state government). There is quite a difference between honoring fallen soldiers and putting emphasis on a symbol that has become synonymous with racist and segregationist ideologies.
I agree with everything you say about the racist connotations of the confederate flag, and that is by itself a compelling reason not to have it flying officially outside a state building, but even beyond that, just on technical grounds, even if the confederate flag didn't have those connotations, it still shouldn't be flying where it is flying. The only flags that should fly on public grounds are flags that reflect the current affiliation(s) of the political entity. In this case, a single flagpole with the state flag flying below the American flag. That should be it.
As for the racism aspect, I can't believe how stupid some GOPers are being about this. I am a dyed-in-wool conservative Republican, Ronald Reagan is my politican hero, I have been voting for national offices (House of Rep, US Senate, President) since 1984, and have never voted for anyone but a Republican for any of them, and yet to me this is open-shut: the Confederate flag is a racist symbol and obviously should come down, and GOP candidates who hem and haw about it are, in addition to being morally wrong, just reducing their national electability and playing in to DemocRAT claims that the GOP has a racist streak.
It's mind-boggingly dumb.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Carolina_Low_Country - 06-23-2015 09:37 AM
(06-23-2015 09:28 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:(06-23-2015 07:05 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote: Since the NCAA had banned planed post season events in S. Carolina because of the confederate flag at the capital. How quickly does this rule now get changed and how quickly is a bowl announced for Columbia or Charleston?Considering it only took 150 years for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from the State Capital building, I think the rule should get changed around 2265, and the 300th anniversary of the Confederacy's defeat.
I don't think they should be praised for doing something that took severe financial penalties to initiate after a century and a half of struggle. Let them struggle for a while, like the next 150 years.
I have seen more confederate flags in West Virginia then any state I have ever been to by a long shot. Which is really funny because West Virginia became a state because they did not want to be in the confederacy with the other Virginia counties. I guess West Virginians are just very ignorant.
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - Rube Dali - 06-23-2015 09:37 AM
As far as the NCAA goes, will their boycott continue? It appears that it will end in South Carolina if the flag is removed. Will it lead to more tournaments? It's always competitive, especially for Men's Basketball, but I figure that Columbia will get one sooner or later. The problem is, the next year available for tournament sites is 2019 and I don't know if the University of South Carolina intends to be as they have done in the past.
I'm certain that there will be an attempt to bring a bowl to the state, but is it one bowl too many?
RE: Flag Comes Down from Capital - VirginiaPirate - 06-23-2015 09:47 AM
Even the NC flag used to have the X on it but it was removed. I am all for respecting history but at some point we move forward and embrace "We the People". Just remove the X and keep the moon and palmetto tree. Much cooler anyway.