(11-15-2014 07:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  For the self employed the ACA law is bad bad bad. What is healthshare?

(11-15-2014 08:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 07:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  For the self employed the ACA law is bad bad bad. What is healthshare?

Healthshare organizations founded prior to 2000 are explicitly exempt from the ObamaCare mandate. So if you join one, you are completely and legally (read: without fine) operating outside ObamaCare with what is effectively health insurance. The reason these organizations were exempt is they are religious in nature, and likely the Dems felt they'd get shot down in courts like the Hobby Lobby case.

Yea, I'm an atheist. Yea, I feel a sudden "religious conversion" coming on to join a healthshare.

http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

(11-15-2014 10:59 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Interesting that someone admits publicly on their own bulletin board they're willing to lie the truth, in order to try to save a few bucks. Do you do the same thing on your taxes?

Seriously, how do you think you justify this?

I thought Libertarians didn't want to manipulate or take advantage of others.

How are you doing anything different than the insurance company you seem to despise?

(11-15-2014 11:05 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 10:59 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Interesting that someone admits publicly on their own bulletin board they're willing to lie the truth, in order to try to save a few bucks. Do you do the same thing on your taxes?

Seriously, how do you think you justify this?

I thought Libertarians didn't want to manipulate or take advantage of others.

How are you doing anything different than the insurance company you seem to despise?

I have no desire to participate in being frisked and extorted by the government to serve the interests of statists and bureaucrats. The fact that the closest thing resembling free market healthcare left is to either be rich or join a religious healthshare is a lose all around choice forced upon me by statists. You act like if I join I healthcare exchange that I'm somehow doing good, moral, ethical things. Oh yes ... let me help willingly participate in the massive redistribution of wealth and full fledged government takeover of the financing of the health care industry. Oh yes ... that's SUCH a virtuous thing to do as well. It's **** choices all around if you're not SPECIFICALLY a Christian (there are no Judaism, Muslim, Buddishm, Sikism, Hinduism, etc healthshares).

And joining a voluntary healthshare is not taking advantage of others any more than joining State Farm for your car insurance is.

(11-15-2014 02:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  CIGNA is I believe converting my private plan to an exchange based plan. This makes the fourth year running of a double digit PERCENTAGE increase in my premium. And my premium notice included a Women's Health Rights notice. WELL WOOPDIE F***IN DO. I don't have ovaries ***holes.

I'm done with the health insurance market. I'm pulling the plug in December and going healthshare. **** all of you in the health insurance market, Gruber, HHS, the Democrats, and Obama. **** all of you with a rusty yard rake.

(11-15-2014 08:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 07:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  For the self employed the ACA law is bad bad bad. What is healthshare?

Healthshare organizations founded prior to 2000 are explicitly exempt from the ObamaCare mandate. So if you join one, you are completely and legally (read: without fine) operating outside ObamaCare with what is effectively health insurance. The reason these organizations were exempt is they are religious in nature, and likely the Dems felt they'd get shot down in courts like the Hobby Lobby case.

Yea, I'm an atheist. Yea, I feel a sudden "religious conversion" coming on to join a healthshare.

http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

(11-16-2014 08:59 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 08:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 07:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  For the self employed the ACA law is bad bad bad. What is healthshare?

Healthshare organizations founded prior to 2000 are explicitly exempt from the ObamaCare mandate. So if you join one, you are completely and legally (read: without fine) operating outside ObamaCare with what is effectively health insurance. The reason these organizations were exempt is they are religious in nature, and likely the Dems felt they'd get shot down in courts like the Hobby Lobby case.

Yea, I'm an atheist. Yea, I feel a sudden "religious conversion" coming on to join a healthshare.

http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

How do you have access to particular physician groups / dental groups networks? As an example with Anthem I can load a PDF off of the website that shows the network that accepts my plan.

(11-16-2014 01:00 AM)G-Man Wrote:  I just don't see how someone can be angry with "statists and bureaucrats" who manipulate the system for their own gain, when you're willing to do the exact same thing-- manipulate the system for your own gain.

(11-16-2014 02:17 PM)G-Man Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 08:59 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 08:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 07:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  For the self employed the ACA law is bad bad bad. What is healthshare?

Healthshare organizations founded prior to 2000 are explicitly exempt from the ObamaCare mandate. So if you join one, you are completely and legally (read: without fine) operating outside ObamaCare with what is effectively health insurance. The reason these organizations were exempt is they are religious in nature, and likely the Dems felt they'd get shot down in courts like the Hobby Lobby case.

Yea, I'm an atheist. Yea, I feel a sudden "religious conversion" coming on to join a healthshare.

http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

How do you have access to particular physician groups / dental groups networks? As an example with Anthem I can load a PDF off of the website that shows the network that accepts my plan.

It works like this. You aren't insured. There is no doctor or hospital network. No one in the health-share is insured by anything. It's a cooperative of "trust"-- Trust that you'll help pay other's needs when you're asked to, and trust that If you have a need, there will be enough people helping to pay your own need so that you don't get left holding the bag. But there's nothing making them back up their willingness to help pay your bills except their "word" when they join, that they will.

Also, if you have pre-existing conditions, forget it. No coverage for them.

Otherwise, once you're a member, everyone who has a NEW (not pre-existing) major expense arise, generating medical bills above a certain threshold, lets the organization know of their "need". The organization informs a certain number of members about your need, to sufficiently cover it, IF each person informed follows through to send you money. Also, they're encouraged to pray for you and send you notes of encouragement. But hopefully, they send you enough money to cover your need so you're not stuck with bills you can't pay.

You hope this sharing of needs program doesn't fall apart, because if there are more needs than money, there's nothing to pay the needs. If that happens too frequently, the organization implodes. If it implodes and you have a health problem, you're screwed. Because losing your "membership" doesn't count as you having a qualifying event that allows you to move to an Obamacare plan that will cover your pre-existing condition that developed for which you now need insurance. Instead, you have to wait until open enrollment.

If you want insurance, buy a short term medical plan that takes you through next December. It won't cover pre-ex conditions, but it will cover you if you have an unexpected major claim. It's not ACA compliant, but it's insurance and backed up by insurance state guarantee funds. If you need to switch to Obamacare because you develop a bad health problem, when the short term policy ends, you switch to Obamacare during next year's open enrollment period.

One main qualifier to "join" the health-share is that you profess to be a Christian. So, if enough people like GTS join, who aren't honest about who they are (an Atheist "using" the system for their own personal gain); If enough of these people who aren't telling the truth, join (indicating they might not be honest in other areas, too--like paying your needs when they committed they would--because by joining in the first place, they're proving they're not willing to be honest, by lying about who they are), then you're more likely to be stuck at some point in the future when you need help the most, because/when they don't honor paying your need, since they don't take commitments seriously.

(11-16-2014 05:45 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 02:17 PM)G-Man Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 08:59 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 08:07 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 07:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  For the self employed the ACA law is bad bad bad. What is healthshare?

Healthshare organizations founded prior to 2000 are explicitly exempt from the ObamaCare mandate. So if you join one, you are completely and legally (read: without fine) operating outside ObamaCare with what is effectively health insurance. The reason these organizations were exempt is they are religious in nature, and likely the Dems felt they'd get shot down in courts like the Hobby Lobby case.

Yea, I'm an atheist. Yea, I feel a sudden "religious conversion" coming on to join a healthshare.

http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

How do you have access to particular physician groups / dental groups networks? As an example with Anthem I can load a PDF off of the website that shows the network that accepts my plan.

It works like this. You aren't insured. There is no doctor or hospital network. No one in the health-share is insured by anything. It's a cooperative of "trust"-- Trust that you'll help pay other's needs when you're asked to, and trust that If you have a need, there will be enough people helping to pay your own need so that you don't get left holding the bag. But there's nothing making them back up their willingness to help pay your bills except their "word" when they join, that they will.

Also, if you have pre-existing conditions, forget it. No coverage for them.

Otherwise, once you're a member, everyone who has a NEW (not pre-existing) major expense arise, generating medical bills above a certain threshold, lets the organization know of their "need". The organization informs a certain number of members about your need, to sufficiently cover it, IF each person informed follows through to send you money. Also, they're encouraged to pray for you and send you notes of encouragement. But hopefully, they send you enough money to cover your need so you're not stuck with bills you can't pay.

You hope this sharing of needs program doesn't fall apart, because if there are more needs than money, there's nothing to pay the needs. If that happens too frequently, the organization implodes. If it implodes and you have a health problem, you're screwed. Because losing your "membership" doesn't count as you having a qualifying event that allows you to move to an Obamacare plan that will cover your pre-existing condition that developed for which you now need insurance. Instead, you have to wait until open enrollment.

If you want insurance, buy a short term medical plan that takes you through next December. It won't cover pre-ex conditions, but it will cover you if you have an unexpected major claim. It's not ACA compliant, but it's insurance and backed up by insurance state guarantee funds. If you need to switch to Obamacare because you develop a bad health problem, when the short term policy ends, you switch to Obamacare during next year's open enrollment period.

One main qualifier to "join" the health-share is that you profess to be a Christian. So, if enough people like GTS join, who aren't honest about who they are (an Atheist "using" the system for their own personal gain); If enough of these people who aren't telling the truth, join (indicating they might not be honest in other areas, too--like paying your needs when they committed they would--because by joining in the first place, they're proving they're not willing to be honest, by lying about who they are), then you're more likely to be stuck at some point in the future when you need help the most, because/when they don't honor paying your need, since they don't take commitments seriously.

See -- ole G-Man here thinks there isn't a monthly premium, so he isn't aware of fundamentally how this is pretty much identical to insurance but without much of the typical network BS.

(11-16-2014 09:05 PM)G-Man Wrote:  There isn't a monthly premium. If you're saying there is, you're either being disingenuous or you don't understand.

The "share" is a fixed amount CURRENTLY, that is supposed to "be enough" to pay anticipated needs (claims) based on future expectations compared to past experience (as a function of how many members there are contributing).

But if needs ever exceed the expected "share" contribution (something there's no way to predict because none of this is actuarialy-sound) one of two things initially happens - needs are only partially paid, or share contributions are increased (based upon costs of needs exceeding shares paid for a certain period--most of these health-share plans evaluate it, if, within two to three months, needs continue not being fully covered). Then the plan administrator either decides to raise the monthly share amount for everyone (if the charter allows it), or they let the members take a vote on it. And that's when some people decide to bail.

These medical share plans operate very similarly to an un-reinsured MEWA. And this is where a third very nasty thing can happen... Google "MEWA" combined, with "risk" to see why these things pose a very real danger to those who think they're well "covered" through them.

I've seen them go belly-up. It's not pretty. And if you're stuck with a "need" when that happens, too bad, so sad. Might as well as never have "shared" a dime. And unfortunately neither ERISA laws nor state reinsurance pools will protect you. You're on your own.

(11-16-2014 09:28 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 09:05 PM)G-Man Wrote:  There isn't a monthly premium. If you're saying there is, you're either being disingenuous or you don't understand.

The "share" is a fixed amount CURRENTLY, that is supposed to "be enough" to pay anticipated needs (claims) based on future expectations compared to past experience (as a function of how many members there are contributing).

But if needs ever exceed the expected "share" contribution (something there's no way to predict because none of this is actuarialy-sound) one of two things initially happens - needs are only partially paid, or share contributions are increased (based upon costs of needs exceeding shares paid for a certain period--most of these health-share plans evaluate it, if, within two to three months, needs continue not being fully covered). Then the plan administrator either decides to raise the monthly share amount for everyone (if the charter allows it), or they let the members take a vote on it. And that's when some people decide to bail.

These medical share plans operate very similarly to an un-reinsured MEWA. And this is where a third very nasty thing can happen... Google "MEWA" combined, with "risk" to see why these things pose a very real danger to those who think they're well "covered" through them.

I've seen them go belly-up. It's not pretty. And if you're stuck with a "need" when that happens, too bad, so sad. Might as well as never have "shared" a dime. And unfortunately neither ERISA laws nor state reinsurance pools will protect you. You're on your own.

It isn't a premium in the strict definition, but it is a mandatory monthly contribution, which your previous post implied did not exist. And of course there is risk, as with everything. But I see this as a decent way out of the system entirely. And it is a no-brainer on the cost/benefit front, as they don't have to do all the BS the insurance companies have to do thanks to ObamaCare now. $199/mo + $125/yr enrollment = up to $1,000,000 coverage with $500 annual deductible. Plans at that pricing level premium in the exchanges for me come with a $6,000+ deductible. And the assurance that I'm helping pay into that statist wet dream of a full government health care takeover. I'd rather pay less for better coverage while subverting their system. Even if that does include some modest level of risk with it.

(11-16-2014 10:55 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Not to sound patronizing, but I wrote in a previous post in your first thread about this, about a short term insurance policy.

I really don't see the downside of that for you philosophically or integrity-wise for you (you maintain both). It's not an Obamacare plan. It covers you for your Million Dollar maximum. BUT it's backed up by state guarantee funds (your share plan isn't). It's HALF the cost of what you're getting into. And you don't have to LIE about who you are to buy it. Go back and at least look at the post.

You might not realize it, but this share plan could come back to haunt you. IF you really did have some big claim, do you not think they wouldn't do some checking into whether you really DID honestly join? These things are notorious for after-a-claim versification. Many require your "pastor" to verify your Christian status AFTER a "need" manifests.

(11-16-2014 01:00 AM)G-Man Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 11:05 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 10:59 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Interesting that someone admits publicly on their own bulletin board they're willing to lie the truth, in order to try to save a few bucks. Do you do the same thing on your taxes?

Seriously, how do you think you justify this?

I thought Libertarians didn't want to manipulate or take advantage of others.

How are you doing anything different than the insurance company you seem to despise?

I have no desire to participate in being frisked and extorted by the government to serve the interests of statists and bureaucrats. The fact that the closest thing resembling free market healthcare left is to either be rich or join a religious healthshare is a lose all around choice forced upon me by statists. You act like if I join I healthcare exchange that I'm somehow doing good, moral, ethical things. Oh yes ... let me help willingly participate in the massive redistribution of wealth and full fledged government takeover of the financing of the health care industry. Oh yes ... that's SUCH a virtuous thing to do as well. It's **** choices all around if you're not SPECIFICALLY a Christian (there are no Judaism, Muslim, Buddishm, Sikism, Hinduism, etc healthshares).

And joining a voluntary healthshare is not taking advantage of others any more than joining State Farm for your car insurance is.

I just don't see how someone can be angry with "statists and bureaucrats" who manipulate the system for their own gain, when you're willing to do the exact same thing-- manipulate the system for your own gain.

There is no difference. Justify it all you want by the talk of not having other choices (you sound like you're making yourself out to be a victim to me), but it's not honest.

Quote:If this is what it means to be a Libertarian, no thanks!

(11-17-2014 08:27 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 01:00 AM)G-Man Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 11:05 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-15-2014 10:59 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Interesting that someone admits publicly on their own bulletin board they're willing to lie the truth, in order to try to save a few bucks. Do you do the same thing on your taxes?

Seriously, how do you think you justify this?

I thought Libertarians didn't want to manipulate or take advantage of others.

How are you doing anything different than the insurance company you seem to despise?

I have no desire to participate in being frisked and extorted by the government to serve the interests of statists and bureaucrats. The fact that the closest thing resembling free market healthcare left is to either be rich or join a religious healthshare is a lose all around choice forced upon me by statists. You act like if I join I healthcare exchange that I'm somehow doing good, moral, ethical things. Oh yes ... let me help willingly participate in the massive redistribution of wealth and full fledged government takeover of the financing of the health care industry. Oh yes ... that's SUCH a virtuous thing to do as well. It's **** choices all around if you're not SPECIFICALLY a Christian (there are no Judaism, Muslim, Buddishm, Sikism, Hinduism, etc healthshares).

And joining a voluntary healthshare is not taking advantage of others any more than joining State Farm for your car insurance is.

I just don't see how someone can be angry with "statists and bureaucrats" who manipulate the system for their own gain, when you're willing to do the exact same thing-- manipulate the system for your own gain.

There is no difference. Justify it all you want by the talk of not having other choices (you sound like you're making yourself out to be a victim to me), but it's not honest.

bull****. You've set up a false equivalence.

(11-17-2014 08:27 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 01:00 AM)G-Man Wrote:  If this is what it means to be a Libertarian, no thanks!

You're embarrassing yourself, and others.

(11-17-2014 05:46 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-16-2014 10:55 PM)G-Man Wrote:  Not to sound patronizing, but I wrote in a previous post in your first thread about this, about a short term insurance policy.

I really don't see the downside of that for you philosophically or integrity-wise for you (you maintain both). It's not an Obamacare plan. It covers you for your Million Dollar maximum. BUT it's backed up by state guarantee funds (your share plan isn't). It's HALF the cost of what you're getting into. And you don't have to LIE about who you are to buy it. Go back and at least look at the post.

You might not realize it, but this share plan could come back to haunt you. IF you really did have some big claim, do you not think they wouldn't do some checking into whether you really DID honestly join? These things are notorious for after-a-claim versification. Many require your "pastor" to verify your Christian status AFTER a "need" manifests.

I'm aware of short term insurance policies. At the high end you get a half year. But they are explicitly NOT to be used as primary long term coverage. Which is precisely what I seek. They'd have just as much recourse against me having a big claim as an unscrupulous healthshare would. And I explicitly mentioned Liberty Healthshare, BTW, as they are much more liberal about that sort of stuff. Some of the other healthshares do indeed require a preacher's letter just to join.