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Upper Midwest in non FBS - DexterDevil - 10-20-2014 11:20 AM
What makes these Upper Midwestern, specifically North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin schools in FCS, DII, and DIII so good? Seems those two states dominate the rankings all the time.
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RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - C2__ - 10-20-2014 11:23 AM
Obviously something is in the air, coming from Canada.
Re: RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - DexterDevil - 10-20-2014 11:27 AM
(10-20-2014 11:23 AM)_C2_ Wrote: Obviously something is in the air, coming from Canada.
Maple syrup maybe?
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RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - C2__ - 10-20-2014 11:49 AM
Maybe it is the stench coming from one of the hockey teams in Alberta.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - bullet - 10-20-2014 11:58 AM
(10-20-2014 11:20 AM)DexterDevil Wrote: What makes these Upper Midwestern, specifically North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin schools in FCS, DII, and DIII so good? Seems those two states dominate the rankings all the time.
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How many FBS teams are in those states? Just two.
How many FCS teams are in those states? Just four (and it was zero until a few years ago).
How many Division II teams are in those states? I think its 13, all in the Northern Sun and 10 are in Minnesota, none in Wisconsin. Several of those are relatively new to Division II.
So that leaves a lot of local talent for the lower levels. Louisiana has very good talent for its population, but its numbers are distorted by having 5 FBS schools in a relatively small state. Wisconsin and Minnesota only have 1 in all of Division I with fairly good size populations.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - C2__ - 10-20-2014 12:02 PM
On a side note, Milwaukee should start a team. There's a niche there since "Milwaukee's" NFL team is the Packers.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - Kaplony - 10-20-2014 12:28 PM
(10-20-2014 12:02 PM)_C2_ Wrote: On a side note, Milwaukee should start a team. There's a niche there since "Milwaukee's" NFL team is the Packers.
They would face an uphill challenge because of recruiting. Wisconsin, for it's size, doesn't produce many recruits. Their population is almost 1 1/2 million more than South Carolina but they have 43 prospects of all levels listed on 24/7 while South Carolina has 123.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - chrisattsu - 10-20-2014 12:28 PM
As a Texan, my initial thoughts are
1. The lack of 2nd/3rd/10th option schools in the area. In many states you will see the flagship(s) get the top talent, followed by the 2nd tier schools, then the rest of G5, then the FCS, then the D2, and on down the chain. Minnesota, Nebraska, and Wisconsin are states with a single FBS school and no FCS schools. The best players in their state end up at the flagship unless recruited away. The second and third tier athletes that might go to bottom G5 or FCS programs in other states end up at D2 or D3 simply because they want to keep playing and were not recruited elsewhere.
2. D2 (and D3) have regional playoffs that reward the best teams with late season home games. At the D2 level, the Lone Star Conference plays in Texas and New Mexico. However we are in Super Region 4 which includes the Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference (Colorado and most of the West), Great Lakes Intercollegiate Conference (Michigan and Ohio), and Great Lakes Valley.
When the playoffs come around the Top 6 teams in the region advance with 1 hosting 6, 2 hosting 5, 3 hosting 4. Top seed always hosting. Unless one of the Texas teams runs the table and our conference has a strong showing (providing strong SoS), they are going to travel some place cold and potentially snowy. We start the season at 100+ degrees, play through October in 80-90 degrees and then in November we fly to Michigan, Colorado, or Washington. Where we are introduced to cold that we haven't seen all season. A couple of years ago, Tarleton played the first round in Kingsville Texas (deep south Texas along the gulf coast) it was 90 degrees in late November. The following week, they had to play at Central Washington where they were shoveling snow off the field before the game.
3. Different styles of game. At the D2 level, Most of the Texas schools set up in the spread and tried to beat you with speed. The northern schools that we faced in the playoffs always had bigger lines and preferred the power running/play action game. When these speedy southern schools go up north, they don't have the same traction and are forced to slowdown
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - Captain Bearcat - 10-21-2014 10:15 AM
(10-20-2014 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:(10-20-2014 11:20 AM)DexterDevil Wrote: What makes these Upper Midwestern, specifically North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin schools in FCS, DII, and DIII so good? Seems those two states dominate the rankings all the time.
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How many FBS teams are in those states? Just two.
How many FCS teams are in those states? Just four (and it was zero until a few years ago).
How many Division II teams are in those states? I think its 13, all in the Northern Sun and 10 are in Minnesota, none in Wisconsin. Several of those are relatively new to Division II.
So that leaves a lot of local talent for the lower levels. Louisiana has very good talent for its population, but its numbers are distorted by having 5 FBS schools in a relatively small state. Wisconsin and Minnesota only have 1 in all of Division I with fairly good size populations.
There's not that much FBS-level local football talent in MN, WI, and the Dakotas. It's simple numbers really - FBS-level talent is dominated by African-Americans, and the African-American population of those 4 states totals 651k (ND and SD combined are less than 19,000). That's less than half of Louisiana (1.45 million).
But white athletes are much more numerous in the FCS and D-2 levels. Those states have large white populations, so they can support good lower-level teams.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - Captain Bearcat - 10-21-2014 10:19 AM
(10-20-2014 12:28 PM)Kaplony Wrote:(10-20-2014 12:02 PM)_C2_ Wrote: On a side note, Milwaukee should start a team. There's a niche there since "Milwaukee's" NFL team is the Packers.
They would face an uphill challenge because of recruiting. Wisconsin, for it's size, doesn't produce many recruits. Their population is almost 1 1/2 million more than South Carolina but they have 43 prospects of all levels listed on 24/7 while South Carolina has 123.
For that matter, neither does Illinois. People in Illinois complain about Wisconsin coming in and stealing the top in-state recruits, but the numbers show that the Badgers usually have more guys on their roster from greater Cincinnati than from all of Illinois.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - Lord Stanley - 10-21-2014 01:51 PM
On the radio this morning the sports desk mentioned that current polling as of 10/21/14 showed that the State of Minnesota is tied with the State of Ohio with 7 football teams currently ranked in the Top 25 across all divisions.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - NoDak - 10-21-2014 02:13 PM
(10-21-2014 10:15 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:Caucasian ethnicity also enters into play. All those states are heavily northern European in descent, were generally are taller and broader than southern Europe or even eastern Europe or the British Isles. The OL and LB to pick from are deeper at the DII and lower levels than other areas of the country. In NoDak, I'm basically average size, but in Tennessee or Alabama or W Virginia where I've lived, the white people are generally shorter and normally slender builds (and those that are obese aren't athletes). Guess it is the Irish-Scotch heritage in the South. The only time I've felt smaller than normal is when I' was around a preponderance of African-American ethnicity in Alabama. People in the northeast are smaller all around. No wonder UConn and UMass have problems in football.(10-20-2014 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:(10-20-2014 11:20 AM)DexterDevil Wrote: What makes these Upper Midwestern, specifically North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin schools in FCS, DII, and DIII so good? Seems those two states dominate the rankings all the time.
Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App
How many FBS teams are in those states? Just two.
How many FCS teams are in those states? Just four (and it was zero until a few years ago).
How many Division II teams are in those states? I think its 13, all in the Northern Sun and 10 are in Minnesota, none in Wisconsin. Several of those are relatively new to Division II.
So that leaves a lot of local talent for the lower levels. Louisiana has very good talent for its population, but its numbers are distorted by having 5 FBS schools in a relatively small state. Wisconsin and Minnesota only have 1 in all of Division I with fairly good size populations.
There's not that much FBS-level local football talent in MN, WI, and the Dakotas. It's simple numbers really - FBS-level talent is dominated by African-Americans, and the African-American population of those 4 states totals 651k (ND and SD combined are less than 19,000). That's less than half of Louisiana (1.45 million).
But white athletes are much more numerous in the FCS and D-2 levels. Those states have large white populations, so they can support good lower-level teams.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - Captain Bearcat - 10-21-2014 02:32 PM
(10-21-2014 02:13 PM)NoDak Wrote:(10-21-2014 10:15 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:Caucasian ethnicity allows enters into play. All those states are heavily northern European in descent, were generally are taller and broader than southern Europe or even eastern Europe or the British Isles. The OL and LB to pick from are deeper at the DII and lower levels than other areas of the country. In NoDak, I'm basically average size, but in Tennessee or Alabama or W Virginia where I've lived, the white people are generally shorter and normally slender builds (and those that are obese aren't athletes). Guess it is the Irish-Scotch heritage in the South. The only time I've felt smaller than normal is when I' was around a preponderance of African-American ethnicity in Alabama. People in the northeast are smaller all around. No wonder UConn and UMass have problems in football.(10-20-2014 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:(10-20-2014 11:20 AM)DexterDevil Wrote: What makes these Upper Midwestern, specifically North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin schools in FCS, DII, and DIII so good? Seems those two states dominate the rankings all the time.
Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App
How many FBS teams are in those states? Just two.
How many FCS teams are in those states? Just four (and it was zero until a few years ago).
How many Division II teams are in those states? I think its 13, all in the Northern Sun and 10 are in Minnesota, none in Wisconsin. Several of those are relatively new to Division II.
So that leaves a lot of local talent for the lower levels. Louisiana has very good talent for its population, but its numbers are distorted by having 5 FBS schools in a relatively small state. Wisconsin and Minnesota only have 1 in all of Division I with fairly good size populations.
There's not that much FBS-level local football talent in MN, WI, and the Dakotas. It's simple numbers really - FBS-level talent is dominated by African-Americans, and the African-American population of those 4 states totals 651k (ND and SD combined are less than 19,000). That's less than half of Louisiana (1.45 million).
But white athletes are much more numerous in the FCS and D-2 levels. Those states have large white populations, so they can support good lower-level teams.
Interesting point. I've noticed that in other places too.
I'm about 6'1. In Cleveland, which is predominantly Italian and Eastern European, I was often the tallest person in the room. In Cincinnati, which is dominated by more German stock, I'm about average, or even a little under the average.
However, I don't think there's anything to the "blacks are taller than whites" idea. The average height of blacks is about the same as whites. But there's a lot more variation among blacks. This is due to their higher genetic variation. (it makes sense - 100,000 years ago there were about 20 groups of homo sapiens in sub-Saharan Africa, and only 3 of them left Africa to give rise to the rest of humanity. You see the least genetic variation amongst South American Indians).
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - MissouriStateBears - 10-21-2014 04:41 PM
Wisconsin's D3 schools are essentially D2 schools playing at the D3 level.
RE: Upper Midwest in non FBS - NoDak - 10-21-2014 06:08 PM
(10-21-2014 02:32 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:(10-21-2014 02:13 PM)NoDak Wrote: t(10-21-2014 10:15 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:Caucasian ethnicity allows enters into play. All those states are heavily northern European in descent, were generally are taller and broader than southern Europe or even eastern Europe or the British Isles. The OL and LB to pick from are deeper at the DII and lower levels than other areas of the country. In NoDak, I'm basically average size, but in Tennessee or Alabama or W Virginia where I've lived, the white people are generally shorter and normally slender builds (and those that are obese aren't athletes). Guess it is the Irish-Scotch heritage in the South. The only time I've felt smaller than normal is when I' was around a preponderance of African-American ethnicity in Alabama. People in the northeast are smaller all around. No wonder UConn and UMass have problems in football.(10-20-2014 11:58 AM)bullet Wrote:(10-20-2014 11:20 AM)DexterDevil Wrote: What makes these Upper Midwestern, specifically North Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin schools in FCS, DII, and DIII so good? Seems those two states dominate the rankings all the time.
Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App
How many FBS teams are in those states? Just two.
How many FCS teams are in those states? Just four (and it was zero until a few years ago).
How many Division II teams are in those states? I think its 13, all in the Northern Sun and 10 are in Minnesota, none in Wisconsin. Several of those are relatively new to Division II.
So that leaves a lot of local talent for the lower levels. Louisiana has very good talent for its population, but its numbers are distorted by having 5 FBS schools in a relatively small state. Wisconsin and Minnesota only have 1 in all of Division I with fairly good size populations.
There's not that much FBS-level local football talent in MN, WI, and the Dakotas. It's simple numbers really - FBS-level talent is dominated by African-Americans, and the African-American population of those 4 states totals 651k (ND and SD combined are less than 19,000). That's less than half of Louisiana (1.45 million).
But white athletes are much more numerous in the FCS and D-2 levels. Those states have large white populations, so they can support good lower-level teams.
Interesting point. I've noticed that in other places too.
I'm about 6'1. In Cleveland, which is predominantly Italian and Eastern European, I was often the tallest person in the room. In Cincinnati, which is dominated by more German stock, I'm about average, or even a little under the average.
However, I don't think there's anything to the "blacks are taller than whites" idea. The average height of blacks is about the same as whites. But there's a lot more variation among blacks. This is due to their higher genetic variation. (it makes sense - 100,000 years ago there were about 20 groups of homo sapiens in sub-Saharan Africa, and only 3 of them left Africa to give rise to the rest of humanity. You see the least genetic variation amongst South American Indians).
Always considered Ohio to be a power in football, and Indiana and Kentucky to be a power in basketball but not in football for ethnic reasons. The people in southern and central Ohio are bigger people. Indiana and Kentucky and much of Appalachia and the Mid-South are more Scotch-Irish who have some tall genes like Abe Lincoln but its rarer to find someone built like a LB.
In small town NoDak, where the communities were founded as ethnic settlements, one can almost predict which sport a town would be good in based on their ethnicity. Much of the southern part of the state was settle by Germans from Russia (namely Ukraine). They escaped brutal treatment from the czars to come for freedom, but their towns were always excelled in football and wrestling. The Norwegian parts of the state had taller basketball players (like the towns Lute Olson or Phil Jackson were from, although Jackson wasn't a Scandinavian descent to my knowledge). The French-Canadian, Czech, Polish, and Ukrainian towns did not seem to produce much FB or BB prowess.