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Alternative history: American Civil war - john01992 - 07-14-2014 08:24 PM
Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville
How does the war play out differently?
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - 49RFootballNow - 07-14-2014 09:24 PM
(07-14-2014 08:24 PM)john01992 Wrote: Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville
How does the war play out differently?
Survives by recovering or he's never hit at Chancellorsville?
If he's out of action recovering during Gettysburg then there's a book on that that I think is pretty accurate on what would happen for Stonewall later:
Stonewall Goes West
If he's still leading his Corp of the ANV on July 2nd, 1863 then he takes Culp's Hill on the first day and the AoP might lose a Corp or two before Meade pulls everyone back to stay in the way of Lee pressing in on Washington and Lee enjoys a nice stay in Harrisburg, PA before deciding what next to do.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - CameramanJ - 07-14-2014 09:46 PM
Just comparing him to his replacement, Richard S. Ewell, with same orders for simplicity's sake:
- probably would have led as well or better at the Second Battle of Winchester
-- as a result, may have captured Harrisburg before Lee would have brought him to bear on Gettysburg (possibly farther-reaching implications for Northern troop movements around that time)
-may have captured the Culp's Hill and/or Cemetery Hill positions at the Battle of Gettysburg
-- as a result, Union forces possibly defeated and in retreat
*beginning of the end for the Union?
If Gettysburg had been lost anyway, it would be a moot point except for the body count. Probably more Union losses in any of the Confederate retreat battles involving Stonewall.
>>49R makes valid points as well.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - bitcruncher - 07-15-2014 08:18 AM
(07-14-2014 08:24 PM)john01992 Wrote: Stonewall Jackson survives ChancellorsvilleOr on the reverse side, what if General Joseph Hooker leads the Army of the Potomac to victory at Chancellorsville? Does the war end there?
How does the war play out differently?
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - vandiver49 - 07-15-2014 12:23 PM
(07-14-2014 08:24 PM)john01992 Wrote: Stonewall Jackson survives Chancellorsville
How does the war play out differently?
Jackson is able to keep Lee on task and doesn't get lured into the Battle of Gettysburg in the first place. And bit, I find your proposed butterfly just as interesting.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - HeartOfDixie - 07-15-2014 01:49 PM
War lasts 6 more months...
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - Phillip26r - 07-15-2014 01:55 PM
I like this game.
What if that minie ball had been three inches to the left or right and it hadn't killed Johnston on April 6, '62? My version is he keeps the pressure on his left flank and drives Grant and his whole army into the swamps, away from the river and the gunboats, that night.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - bitcruncher - 07-15-2014 02:02 PM
I see it's all about the southern end on this conversation, since nobody wants to discuss the possible result of General Hooker winning the battle of Chancellorsville.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - Owl 69/70/75 - 07-15-2014 04:41 PM
The war was decided by logistics. Like most wars are. The north's industrial might was always going to outperform the south's by a wide margin and sooner or later that was always going to win the war.
You want to talk about things that would have changed the outcome? Maybe if Birmingham had gotten started 60 years sooner
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - HeartOfDixie - 07-15-2014 04:50 PM
(07-15-2014 04:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: The war was decided by logistics. Like most wars are. The north's industrial might was always going to outperform the south's by a wide margin and sooner or later that was always going to win the war.
You want to talk about things that would have changed the outcome? Maybe if Birmingham had gotten started 60 years sooner
This is 100% true based on the altered way of looking at the situation after the war.
Going in nobody, in Europe, thought the North had a real chance to prevent the breakaway.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - vandiver49 - 07-16-2014 07:24 AM
(07-15-2014 02:02 PM)bitcruncher Wrote: I see it's all about the southern end on this conversation, since nobody wants to discuss the possible result of General Hooker winning the battle of Chancellorsville.
I'll give it a go Bit, since I think the key factor is the the total losses the North is able to inflict on the South. I don't see the south suing for peace but if Hooker goes all in with his forces and increases the casualty count north of 25K, I think this prevents General Lee from even considering attacking Gettysburg. What's you're opinion?
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - bitcruncher - 07-16-2014 01:55 PM
I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - vandiver49 - 07-17-2014 08:17 AM
(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote: I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.
I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - bitcruncher - 07-17-2014 09:15 AM
(07-17-2014 08:17 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:Possibly. But the south's position is much more tenuous from that point, if the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville comes out in favor of the Union. Lee's forces are in retreat, and being forced into Richmond concentrates their forces where they are unable to use their best strategy, which was guerrilla warfare.(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote: I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - 49RFootballNow - 07-17-2014 10:57 AM
(07-17-2014 09:15 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:(07-17-2014 08:17 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:Possibly. But the south's position is much more tenuous from that point, if the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville comes out in favor of the Union. Lee's forces are in retreat, and being forced into Richmond concentrates their forces where they are unable to use their best strategy, which was guerrilla warfare.(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote: I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
Lee didn't use guerrilla tactics. At best he used an early form of Blitzkrieg tactics.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - bitcruncher - 07-17-2014 11:49 AM
(07-17-2014 10:57 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:Whatever the case, being bottled up in Richmond would have severely limited his option.(07-17-2014 09:15 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:Lee didn't use guerrilla tactics. At best he used an early form of Blitzkrieg tactics.(07-17-2014 08:17 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:Possibly. But the south's position is much more tenuous from that point, if the outcome of the battle of Chancellorsville comes out in favor of the Union. Lee's forces are in retreat, and being forced into Richmond concentrates their forces where they are unable to use their best strategy, which was guerrilla warfare.(07-16-2014 01:55 PM)bitcruncher Wrote: I think the war is over at that point. Lee was a smart enough general to understand the futility of continuing the fight from that point. He would have had to surrender to keep from getting all his men killed in a fight he couldn't win.I figured Lee would retreat once he found the battle untenable. Unless hooker surrounds him, the CSA just slips out the back door and retreats to Richmond to defend the capitol.
Alternative history: American Civil war - South Carolina Duke - 07-17-2014 09:28 PM
Like 49er said, lee was against and never entertained a guerrilla war plan.
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RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - VA49er - 07-18-2014 08:26 AM
(07-17-2014 09:28 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote: Like 49er said, lee was against and never entertained a guerrilla war plan.
Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App
Yep, that was a major part of his reasoning for surrendering at Appomatox. He didn't want to continue fighting if it meant fighting a guerrilla war.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - DragonLair - 07-18-2014 09:57 AM
What if Bragg and Smith were able to win the battle at Perryville and the confederates were able to stay in Kentucky longer building support there.
RE: Alternative history: American Civil war - Lord Stanley - 07-18-2014 03:18 PM
What if, as was said to be planned, the Confederacy retreated en-mas to South America and the Caribbean and set up a new governments in Brazil or Cuba? Combined with the potential for a Nazi retreat into after WWII into Argentina and and Chile, there arises the probable National-Socialist Confederate States of South America!
![[Image: surprised-gopher-o.gif]](http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/973622/surprised-gopher-o.gif)