(01-25-2014 03:28 PM)TripleA Wrote:  In another thread, we had a discussion about why some people seem eternally critical of our team, regardless of performance, from game to game, win or lose.

I'm not referring to the majority of fans who say both good and bad things about us, only referring to those who are constantly negative.

I recognize their right to complain, within the AUP. Contrary to some people's impressions, I actually have no issue with the rules, or with the moderation here, and I do not expect those posters to be banned.

My only issue is that it is impossible to have any sort of reasonable discussion about anything basketball related, b/c folks with those opinions bombard everyone else with the same old diatribe, and use any bad game, or even a series of play, to support their contentions.

Okay, fair enough. But I decided that two can play this game, so I started pushing back on a few of them. They don't like that.

It's okay for them to bombard the rest of us daily, in almost every thread, but it's not okay if we give some of it back. But after awhile, I got tired of it, b/c it leads nowhere. Nobody on a message board ever changes his/her mind. They just want to espouse their views.

Then I started thinking about their motivation. I have been convinced for a long time that it is a result of holding Pastner to the standard of Calipari's last 4 years here. Not to Calipari's first 5 years here, or Cal's first 4 1/2 years in coaching, or anything else in Memphis' history. Only that one-time spectacular 4-year run in the NCAAs.

On the other thread, one comment in particular caught my attention, "A lot of ppl think Pastner has had underachieving teams and so some of us are going to be critical (even when they blow out Houston). If he starts going balls out in the tournament and they make a few deep runs, most will lay off and enjoy."

I asked him what constituted a "deep run." He said "S16/E8."

To be clear, I am not singling him out. He has the right to feel that way. I just would like to understand it.

So, that got me thinking. How many "deep runs" have we had in history by the same coach, with the assumption that "a few" means more than 2?

So, here's the research:

NCAA School Appearances = 25
Record = 33-25

F2
1973, 2008

F4
1985

E8
92 06 07

S16
84 95 09

One win
76 82 83 86 88 04 13

Lost first game
55 56 62 89 93 96 03 11 12

Coaches
Frederick Grantham 1920-21
W.H. DePriest 21-22
Lester Barhard 22-24
Zach Curlin 24-48
McCoy Tarry 48-51
Eugene Lambert 51-56: 2 appearances = 0 wins
Bob Vanatta 56-62: 1 appearance = 0 wins
Dean Ehlers 62-66
Moe Iba 66-70
Gene Bartow 70-74: 1 appearance = 3 wins (1 F2 in '73)
Wayne Yates 74-79: 1 appearance = 0 wins
Dana Kirk 79-86: 5 appearances = 9 wins (S16 in '84*, F4 in '85*)
Larry Finch 86-97: 6 appearances = 6 wins (E8 in '92, S16 in '95)
Tic Price 97-99
Johnny Jones 99-00
John Calipari 00-09: 6 appearances = 14 wins ('06-09 = E8, E8, F2*, S16)
Josh Pastner 09-present: 3 appearances = 1 win

* = Vacated

References:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/memphis/

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6587

Facts:

1. Memphis has had 17 BB head coaches since our first season in 1920.

1. Eight coaches have taken us to the NCAA, in 94 years.

2. Three coaches have more appearances than Josh Pastner (Kirk, Calipari, Finch).

3. Four coaches have more tourney wins than Pastner (Bartow + the above 3 coaches).

4. In 94 years, we have 9 runs to the S16, or deeper.

5. Bartow has 1, Kirk has 2 (both vacated), Finch has 2, and Calipari has 4 (1 vacated).

Observations:

1. "A few" usually means not a great amount, but more than 2.

2. By the above definition, in 94 years and 17 coaches, only ONE COACH. John Calipari, has had "a few deep runs" in the NCAAs (4 back to back, with 1 vacated, so he barely meets the definition).

3. Kirk had 2 deep runs (not "a few"), but both were vacated.

Conclusions:

I'm not saying this one poster represents everybody who is CONSTANTLY negative about our team and current coach, but I bet he isn't the only one who feels that way, based on almost 5 years of comments, from a number of posters.

It seems to me that the real standard that most of Pastner's detractors hold him to is Calipari's last 4 years (not his first 5), and not to any other coach in Memphis history. That 4 year run is not only Memphis' best, it is the best in NCAA history in # of wins (before vacated ones), and one of the best NCAA runs in history (behind UCLA and not many, if any, more).

So, by saying we'll be happy after Pastner makes a few deep runs in the tourney, people who feel that way are going to be unhappy for a LONG TIME more, several years, at least.

And THAT is why I say it is impossible to have a rational discussion with anyone who feels that way, b/c that is an impossible standard, and certainly not the norm for Memphis basketball. EVER. Not even close.

Not the end of the world. Just want to call it for what it is.

(01-25-2014 03:28 PM)TripleA Wrote:  In another thread, we had a discussion about why some people seem eternally critical of our team, regardless of performance, from game to game, win or lose.

I'm not referring to the majority of fans who say both good and bad things about us, only referring to those who are constantly negative.

I recognize their right to complain, within the AUP. Contrary to some people's impressions, I actually have no issue with the rules, or with the moderation here, and I do not expect those posters to be banned.

My only issue is that it is impossible to have any sort of reasonable discussion about anything basketball related, b/c folks with those opinions bombard everyone else with the same old diatribe, and use any bad game, or even a series of play, to support their contentions.

Okay, fair enough. But I decided that two can play this game, so I started pushing back on a few of them. They don't like that.

It's okay for them to bombard the rest of us daily, in almost every thread, but it's not okay if we give some of it back. But after awhile, I got tired of it, b/c it leads nowhere. Nobody on a message board ever changes his/her mind. They just want to espouse their views.

Then I started thinking about their motivation. I have been convinced for a long time that it is a result of holding Pastner to the standard of Calipari's last 4 years here. Not to Calipari's first 5 years here, or Cal's first 4 1/2 years in coaching, or anything else in Memphis' history. Only that one-time spectacular 4-year run in the NCAAs.

On the other thread, one comment in particular caught my attention, "A lot of ppl think Pastner has had underachieving teams and so some of us are going to be critical (even when they blow out Houston). If he starts going balls out in the tournament and they make a few deep runs, most will lay off and enjoy."

I asked him what constituted a "deep run." He said "S16/E8."

To be clear, I am not singling him out. He has the right to feel that way. I just would like to understand it.

So, that got me thinking. How many "deep runs" have we had in history by the same coach, with the assumption that "a few" means more than 2?

So, here's the research:

NCAA School Appearances = 25
Record = 33-25

F2
1973, 2008

F4
1985

E8
92 06 07

S16
84 95 09

One win
76 82 83 86 88 04 13

Lost first game
55 56 62 89 93 96 03 11 12

Coaches
Frederick Grantham 1920-21
W.H. DePriest 21-22
Lester Barhard 22-24
Zach Curlin 24-48
McCoy Tarry 48-51
Eugene Lambert 51-56: 2 appearances = 0 wins
Bob Vanatta 56-62: 1 appearance = 0 wins
Dean Ehlers 62-66
Moe Iba 66-70
Gene Bartow 70-74: 1 appearance = 3 wins (1 F2 in '73)
Wayne Yates 74-79: 1 appearance = 0 wins
Dana Kirk 79-86: 5 appearances = 9 wins (S16 in '84*, F4 in '85*)
Larry Finch 86-97: 6 appearances = 6 wins (E8 in '92, S16 in '95)
Tic Price 97-99
Johnny Jones 99-00
John Calipari 00-09: 6 appearances = 14 wins ('06-09 = E8, E8, F2*, S16)
Josh Pastner 09-present: 3 appearances = 1 win

* = Vacated

References:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/memphis/

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/history/_/team1/6587

Facts:

1. Memphis has had 17 BB head coaches since our first season in 1920.

1. Eight coaches have taken us to the NCAA, in 94 years.

2. Three coaches have more appearances than Josh Pastner (Kirk, Calipari, Finch).

3. Four coaches have more tourney wins than Pastner (Bartow + the above 3 coaches).

4. In 94 years, we have 9 runs to the S16, or deeper.

5. Bartow has 1, Kirk has 2 (both vacated), Finch has 2, and Calipari has 4 (1 vacated).

Observations:

1. "A few" usually means not a great amount, but more than 2.

2. By the above definition, in 94 years and 17 coaches, only ONE COACH. John Calipari, has had "a few deep runs" in the NCAAs (4 back to back, with 1 vacated, so he barely meets the definition).

3. Kirk had 2 deep runs (not "a few"), but both were vacated.

Conclusions:

I'm not saying this one poster represents everybody who is CONSTANTLY negative about our team and current coach, but I bet he isn't the only one who feels that way, based on almost 5 years of comments, from a number of posters.

It seems to me that the real standard that most of Pastner's detractors hold him to is Calipari's last 4 years (not his first 5), and not to any other coach in Memphis history. That 4 year run is not only Memphis' best, it is the best in NCAA history in # of wins (before vacated ones), and one of the best NCAA runs in history (behind UCLA and not many, if any, more).

So, by saying we'll be happy after Pastner makes a few deep runs in the tourney, people who feel that way are going to be unhappy for a LONG TIME more, several years, at least.

And THAT is why I say it is impossible to have a rational discussion with anyone who feels that way, b/c that is an impossible standard, and certainly not the norm for Memphis basketball. EVER. Not even close.

Not the end of the world. Just want to call it for what it is.

(01-25-2014 04:14 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Nice work.

Not directed at you but vacated means nothing to me.

Sports media and internet nerds are the only folks who care about that.

Fab 5 went to two Final Fours. I watched both.

(01-25-2014 04:19 PM)Raleigh_Tiger Wrote:  Nice try. Won't help. Appreciate your research, though. This is rational well thought out reasoning. Which is what is wrong with it.

(01-25-2014 05:04 PM)alcalde Wrote:  We were in the Sweet 16 in 1982 and 1983 as well.

(01-25-2014 04:20 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  While I think you have a rationale theory, the problem is not all 94 Tiger teams were equal in talent.

Doubt you will find many over the course of history with as many top 100 players as Cal and Partner have had.

Sure, there have been some individual teams that were loaded, but few coaches have had as much talent that ranked favorably with the top teams in the country as Kirk, some Finch, Cal and Pastner.

(01-25-2014 04:54 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  Some fans think we should reach the Sweet 16 every season.

(01-25-2014 05:10 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(01-25-2014 04:19 PM)Raleigh_Tiger Wrote:  Nice try. Won't help. Appreciate your research, though. This is rational well thought out reasoning. Which is what is wrong with it.

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. Just putting research behind my points. I can probably predict each reaction by first reading the user name.

(01-25-2014 04:55 PM)tigeriron Wrote:  wouldn't you necessarily agree that the standard begins with how well a coach does with so called non talent?

(01-25-2014 05:15 PM)MemphisTiger15 Wrote:  

(01-25-2014 05:04 PM)alcalde Wrote:  We were in the Sweet 16 in 1982 and 1983 as well.

yep. Kirk went to 4 straight sweet 16s

and I'm with Hoop Deams -- "vacated" means nothing to me

(01-25-2014 04:56 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  It appears that you have a lot of time on your hands.

(01-25-2014 04:56 PM)TiminMem23 Wrote:  It appears that you have a lot of time on your hands.