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Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - chargeradio - 07-11-2013 08:14 PM
Let's go back and assume that not only did the Big 12 take West Virginia and TCU for 2012, but would also take Louisville and Cincinnati for 2013.
Would the Big Ten try to bring in Maryland and Rutgers in 2013 instead of 2014? If so, would Connecticut move to the ACC on short notice?
If the ACC and Big 10 couldn't make their moves for 2013, would we be left with a Big East that was down to 4 full members who played football in 2013 (Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Rutgers), and 4 football only members from the WAC (Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, Louisiana Tech)?
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - UCbball21 - 07-11-2013 08:29 PM
(07-11-2013 08:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote: Let's go back and assume that not only did the Big 12 take West Virginia and TCU for 2012, but would also take Louisville and Cincinnati for 2013.
Would the Big Ten try to bring in Maryland and Rutgers in 2013 instead of 2014? If so, would Connecticut move to the ACC on short notice?
If the ACC and Big 10 couldn't make their moves for 2013, would we be left with a Big East that was down to 4 full members who played football in 2013 (Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Rutgers), and 4 football only members from the WAC (Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, Louisiana Tech)?
No doubt the Big East would have died and USF would have been absorbed into C-USA most likely. I also think the entire ACC would have imploddd as well because I don't see the UConn satisfying FSU like Louisville dead. No doubt the landscape of college football woild be much different.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - johnbragg - 07-11-2013 08:53 PM
It doesn't kill the Big East/AAC. I had the Big 12 taking Louisville and Rutgers, but the league carries on.
So in the spring of 2012, the Big 12 announces Louisville and Cincinnati to the Big 12 for 2013.
2012: Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville, Cincinnati, Temple, UConn, Rutgers, USF. 8 FBS full members.
2013: Temple, UConn, Rutgers, USF, UCF, Houston, SMU, Memphis. 8 FBS full members, with or without BSU SDSU.
Do the Catholics split at that point? I think so. Do the CUSA schools still join? I think so, their spots were already filled.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - loki_the_bubba - 07-11-2013 10:54 PM
They could have. But they wouldn't have even noticed if they did.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - ChrisLords - 07-11-2013 11:02 PM
The Big 12 could almost still kill the AAC. Say after the B12 GoR ends and LHN contract expires that Texas becomes an independent and signs on with the ACC like ND. Then the Big 12 would have 9 schools. If they then take 7 schools from the AAC there would only be 5 schools left including Navy who is only in for Football. So 4 full members. Would the NCAA allow the AAC to still exist and take 7 more schools from CUSA, MWC and MAC? Probably. But if they didn't those 4/5 Member could join an 18/19 or 20 team CUSA. It's a long shot but it's possible.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Attackcoog - 07-11-2013 11:56 PM
(07-11-2013 08:29 PM)UCbball21 Wrote:(07-11-2013 08:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote: Let's go back and assume that not only did the Big 12 take West Virginia and TCU for 2012, but would also take Louisville and Cincinnati for 2013.
Would the Big Ten try to bring in Maryland and Rutgers in 2013 instead of 2014? If so, would Connecticut move to the ACC on short notice?
If the ACC and Big 10 couldn't make their moves for 2013, would we be left with a Big East that was down to 4 full members who played football in 2013 (Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Rutgers), and 4 football only members from the WAC (Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, Louisiana Tech)?
No doubt the Big East would have died and USF would have been absorbed into C-USA most likely. I also think the entire ACC would have imploddd as well because I don't see the UConn satisfying FSU like Louisville dead. No doubt the landscape of college football woild be much different.
Possibly. But the MO for the Big East was to quickly reload. So unless the raids all occurred at virtually the same time, the Big East would have just continued to slowly morph more and more into the 2012 version of CUSA.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Melky Cabrera - 07-12-2013 06:19 AM
(07-11-2013 08:29 PM)UCbball21 Wrote:(07-11-2013 08:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote: Let's go back and assume that not only did the Big 12 take West Virginia and TCU for 2012, but would also take Louisville and Cincinnati for 2013.
Would the Big Ten try to bring in Maryland and Rutgers in 2013 instead of 2014? If so, would Connecticut move to the ACC on short notice?
If the ACC and Big 10 couldn't make their moves for 2013, would we be left with a Big East that was down to 4 full members who played football in 2013 (Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Rutgers), and 4 football only members from the WAC (Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, Louisiana Tech)?
No doubt the Big East would have died and USF would have been absorbed into C-USA most likely. I also think the entire ACC would have imploddd as well because I don't see the UConn satisfying FSU like Louisville dead. No doubt the landscape of college football woild be much different.
I doubt that the ACC would have imploded.
If the Big XII had taken Louisville and Cincinnati as suggested, a dissatisfied Florida State and one other from the ACC - probably Georgia Tech or Clemson - might well have gone to the Big XII. I doubt that the Big XII would have gone beyond 14.
Bu that still would have left a 12 member ACC (with Syracuse & Pitt who had already announced for the ACC) pulling in UConn to go to 13 and later Notre Dame to go to 14. The loss of Maryland to the Big Ten would have dropped them back to 12 full time + ND. They might even have added Rutgers before the Big Ten grabbed them. Either way that's still a very viable conference.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - johnbragg - 07-12-2013 06:53 AM
(07-11-2013 11:56 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:(07-11-2013 08:29 PM)UCbball21 Wrote:(07-11-2013 08:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote: Let's go back and assume that not only did the Big 12 take West Virginia and TCU for 2012, but would also take Louisville and Cincinnati for 2013.
Would the Big Ten try to bring in Maryland and Rutgers in 2013 instead of 2014? If so, would Connecticut move to the ACC on short notice?
If the ACC and Big 10 couldn't make their moves for 2013, would we be left with a Big East that was down to 4 full members who played football in 2013 (Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Rutgers), and 4 football only members from the WAC (Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, Louisiana Tech)?
No doubt the Big East would have died and USF would have been absorbed into C-USA most likely. I also think the entire ACC would have imploddd as well because I don't see the UConn satisfying FSU like Louisville dead. No doubt the landscape of college football woild be much different.
Possibly. But the MO for the Big East was to quickly reload. So unless the raids all occurred at virtually the same time, the Big East would have just continued to slowly morph more and more into the 2012 version of CUSA.
The only way "Big East/AAC Football" dies is if either Fox or ESPN leans on the Big 12 in the fall of 2012.
I think Fox had the right to void the contract if the Big 12 didn't have 10 teams. Maybe they waive that provision for 2012, but the Big 12 has to go to 12 and give Fox gets more games for 2013-2025(?) Maybe ESPN makes noise about reducing the Big 12 contract because they're not playing a CCG on ESPN.
It would have had to be FOX, because ESPN didn't have clean hands and would have been too exposed, legally, between their relationships with the ACC and SEC.
If that happens, then I see the Big 12 inviting West Virginia, Louisville and either Cincinnati or Rutgers in the fall of 2011. With only 3 football schools, I don't know if you get 5 CUSA/Temple/UMass schools to make the jump. Or the Catholics might put the football league out of their misery.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Underdog - 07-12-2013 09:27 AM
Regading the subject of this thread, the B12 should have killed the old Big East. It should have taken what was left of the old Big East and established a Big East Division within the B12:
Big East Div: Louisville, Rutgers, WV, UC, UCONN, USF, Iowa St
Big West Div: Baylor, KU, K St, OU, OSU, TX, TT
The C7 would never had to split…..
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - True Bearcat - 07-12-2013 09:40 AM
I wish the Big XII would of had the forward thinking, and gone to 14 like the SEC had done. It is obvious the Big XII sees the SEC as their chief rival. Signing a "Champions Bowl" deal with them, and seeing two schools bolt for the SEC I think makes them believe they are of equal footing.
There are AD's who have said they wish they had added Louisville. They should have added Louisville, and West Virginia immediately. That got them to 11. The battle would've been between Cincinnati, Rutgers, and South Florida to go to 12. However if they would of had the forward thinking, and not the Texas centric thinking they could have added West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Rutgers, and South Florida. This would have been one heck of a conference. The football would rival the SEC be great for tv. The divisions would have broken down nicely, and the former BIG EAST teams were used to traveling to Tampa. This would have killed the American leaving more hours on tv for the new Big XIV.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - CliftonAve - 07-12-2013 09:46 AM
(07-12-2013 09:27 AM)Underdog Wrote: Regading the subject of this thread, the B12 should have killed the old Big East. It should have taken what was left of the old Big East and established a Big East Division within the B12:
Big East Div: Louisville, Rutgers, WV, UC, UCONN, USF, Iowa St
Big West Div: Baylor, KU, K St, OU, OSU, TX, TT
The C7 would never had to split…..
This.
People say the money would not have been there but since the B1G was willing to take on Rutgers and the ACC took on Louisville and got increases that is not true. The networks would have saved money as a whole in the long run by having two conferences merge to one.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - lofi - 07-12-2013 12:39 PM
(07-11-2013 08:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote: Let's go back and assume that not only did the Big 12 take West Virginia and TCU for 2012, but would also take Louisville and Cincinnati for 2013.Why would they have wanted to?
Would the Big Ten try to bring in Maryland and Rutgers in 2013 instead of 2014? If so, would Connecticut move to the ACC on short notice?
If the ACC and Big 10 couldn't make their moves for 2013, would we be left with a Big East that was down to 4 full members who played football in 2013 (Temple, Connecticut, South Florida, Rutgers), and 4 football only members from the WAC (Idaho, NMSU, Texas State, Louisiana Tech)?
The old BE wasn't a threat to the B12.
The B12's intention was to get back to 10 teams. It's that simple.
The league that wanted the old BE destroyed certainly wasn't the B12.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - goofus - 07-12-2013 06:09 PM
Even if the Big 12 had killed the Big East football by taking 6 teams from the Big East, there still would have been a move to try to create a new national conference to become that 6th power conference.
Assuming that WV, Louisville, Cincy, Rut, UConn and USF end up in the Big 12. I predict the following new conference would have formed:
"National" Conference
west
BYU, Boise, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Air Force-football only
East
TCU, Houston, UCF, Memphis, ECU, Navy-football only
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Melky Cabrera - 07-12-2013 06:17 PM
There must be a reason why the Big XII has stopped at 10.
Maybe the commitment isn't as firm as some think. It takes 8 of 10 votes to dissolve the conference, 9 of 12, 11 of 14. The GOR doesn't hold it together if enough members want to go elsewhere and decide to dissolve the conference so they can move on. Perhaps there are enough members who want to keep their options open that they are blocking any further expansion, figuring that they have a better shot at getting 8 votes than 9 or 11.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - johnbragg - 07-12-2013 07:09 PM
(07-12-2013 06:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote: There must be a reason why the Big XII has stopped at 10.
Maybe the commitment isn't as firm as some think. It takes 8 of 10 votes to dissolve the conference, 9 of 12, 11 of 14. The GOR doesn't hold it together if enough members want to go elsewhere and decide to dissolve the conference so they can move on. Perhaps there are enough members who want to keep their options open that they are blocking any further expansion, figuring that they have a better shot at getting 8 votes than 9 or 11.
Except that there are 6 members who are pretty certain that they'd be left shivering and naked in the cold, dark night--TCU, West Virginia, KAnsas, K-State, BAylor and Iowa State. And Texas Tech and Oklahoma State can't be feeling too comfortable either.
Maybe the Big 12 didn't expand in 2011-12 because Louisville and BYU, or Boise State and BYU or Louisville and Boise State or Rutgers and Houston or whoever, didn't bring in enough revenue to pay for their share of the TV contract. Especially if the conference title game was already owned by ESPN under the 2006 or so contract, that means no new revenue from a CCG.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - JRsec - 07-12-2013 07:21 PM
No. It was once fully alive and thriving. Now it is in between death and revitalization. So I call it undead and you can't kill the undead. In my opinion it is really likely to lose just one more member. The loss of one member won't kill them. So they will be fine one way or the other.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Melky Cabrera - 07-12-2013 07:52 PM
(07-12-2013 07:09 PM)johnbragg Wrote:(07-12-2013 06:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote: There must be a reason why the Big XII has stopped at 10.
Maybe the commitment isn't as firm as some think. It takes 8 of 10 votes to dissolve the conference, 9 of 12, 11 of 14. The GOR doesn't hold it together if enough members want to go elsewhere and decide to dissolve the conference so they can move on. Perhaps there are enough members who want to keep their options open that they are blocking any further expansion, figuring that they have a better shot at getting 8 votes than 9 or 11.
Except that there are 6 members who are pretty certain that they'd be left shivering and naked in the cold, dark night--TCU, West Virginia, KAnsas, K-State, BAylor and Iowa State. And Texas Tech and Oklahoma State can't be feeling too comfortable either.
Maybe the Big 12 didn't expand in 2011-12 because Louisville and BYU, or Boise State and BYU or Louisville and Boise State or Rutgers and Houston or whoever, didn't bring in enough revenue to pay for their share of the TV contract. Especially if the conference title game was already owned by ESPN under the 2006 or so contract, that means no new revenue from a CCG.
The B1G has been rumored to have some interest in Kansas. So, if that happened, it would only take one more. West Virginia would jump in a heartbeat if they received an invite from the SEC . . . or even the ACC.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Underdog - 07-12-2013 08:05 PM
(07-12-2013 06:09 PM)goofus Wrote: Even if the Big 12 had killed the Big East football by taking 6 teams from the Big East, there still would have been a move to try to create a new national conference to become that 6th power conference.
Assuming that WV, Louisville, Cincy, Rut, UConn and USF end up in the Big 12. I predict the following new conference would have formed:
"National" Conference
west
BYU, Boise, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Air Force-football only
East
TCU, Houston, UCF, Memphis, ECU, Navy-football only
Would never have happened or worked.... The American is a perfect example that the old Big East could not be made whole using CUSA schools (and Navy) with the remaining Big East schools. Consequently, another “National” conference wouldn’t have emerged from the death of Big East football. The only reason the American exist is because the remaining Big East football schools had no other place to go except to other mid-major conferences—so why not start your own (which they did).
(07-12-2013 06:17 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote: There must be a reason why the Big XII has stopped at 10.
When you’re a narrow minded conference with no vision and under the control of TX, you stop @10 when your name is B12. The eastern footprint that the remaining Big East schools would have provided the B12 could have given it the largest and probably most valuable footprint ever. The B12 could have been two BCS conferences merged into one, which would have made the conference championship game must see tv. The B12 was too narrow minded and lacked the vision to see this potential. In fact, it couldn’t even see the potential of adding Louisville and UC. The B12 was too concerned about repairing itself (which was incompletely and ineptly done) instead of enlarging itself with a footprint that would have been second to none….
Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - chargeradio - 07-12-2013 08:15 PM
(07-12-2013 06:09 PM)goofus Wrote: Even if the Big 12 had killed the Big East football by taking 6 teams from the Big East, there still would have been a move to try to create a new national conference to become that 6th power conference.
Assuming that WV, Louisville, Cincy, Rut, UConn and USF end up in the Big 12. I predict the following new conference would have formed:
"National" Conference
west
BYU, Boise, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico, Air Force-football only
East
TCU, Houston, UCF, Memphis, ECU, Navy-football only
Keeping in mind that it is still the Big East that held the BCS AQ, and that TCU was one to the Big 12 (perhaps you meant SMU)
Temple
South Florida
Central Florida
Tulane
Tulsa
SMU
Houston
Memphis
Boise State passed on this when Louisville, Cincinnati, Rutgers, and Connecticut started sniffing around-I doubt they stay with them gone.
C-USA is now down to six for 2013 (ECU, Marshall, UAB, USM, UTEP, Rice) if they're still able to raid the Sun Belt and WAC, I'd imagine they'd still take FAU, FIU, North Texas, and MTSU from the Sun Belt and UTSA and LTU from the WAC.
The Sun Belt falls from 10 to 6 for 2013, then takes Texas State as a full member followed by NMSU and Idaho for football only, sparing the last two a season as independents. Georgia Southern and App State get added for 2014.
If a 6-team CUSA can't raid anyone, UTEP, Rice, and USM head to the WAC. UAB heads to the Sun Belt. ECU and Marshall join the WAC for football only.
WAC:
Idaho/Seattle*
Denver*/UMKC*
New Mexico State/UTEP
Rice/UT-Arlington*
Texas State/UTSA
Louisiana Tech/Southern Miss
Sun Belt:
North Texas/Arkansas State
Louisiana/ULM
South Alabama/Troy
FAU/FIU
MTSU/WKU
UAB/Georgia State
UALR*
ODU and Charlotte would have to settle for football-only membership in the WAC, at least initially. Once the Big East splits and the American takes ECU and Old Dominion, Georgia Southern and App State finally get their FBS tickets punched by the WAC.
RE: Could the Big 12 have killed The American? - Underdog - 07-13-2013 08:36 AM
(07-12-2013 09:40 AM)True Bearcat Wrote: I wish the Big XII would of had the forward thinking, and gone to 14 like the SEC had done. It is obvious the Big XII sees the SEC as their chief rival. Signing a "Champions Bowl" deal with them, and seeing two schools bolt for the SEC I think makes them believe they are of equal footing.
There are AD's who have said they wish they had added Louisville. They should have added Louisville, and West Virginia immediately. That got them to 11. The battle would've been between Cincinnati, Rutgers, and South Florida to go to 12. However if they would of had the forward thinking, and not the Texas centric thinking they could have added West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Rutgers, and South Florida. This would have been one heck of a conference. The football would rival the SEC be great for tv. The divisions would have broken down nicely, and the former BIG EAST teams were used to traveling to Tampa. This would have killed the American leaving more hours on tv for the new Big XIV.
If the B12's doesn't change its way of thinking, it will eventually cause its own demise. Consequently, I can see us in the future posting in a thread with the subject: "Did the Big 12 kill itself?"