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Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - TheRock - 12-28-2012 01:33 PM
Two articles about Boeheim's public push for to keep rivalries alive:
Quote:The Johnnies' most prized asset is their home floor, Madison Square Garden, and the rest of the league knows that. By leaving for the ACC, Syracuse is losing an opportunity to have its fans travel to the Garden for road games against St. John's. But Boeheim's looking to avoid that loss.
http://www.rumbleinthegarden.com/st-johns-red-storm-mens-basketball/2012/12/28/3811136/syracuse-acc-jim-boeheim-big-east-rivalries-st-johns
Quote:We're talking w/ St. John's and Georgetown right now, and Villanova. We're heavily into talks," the coach said during a radio show on a local ESPN radio station. The plan, he says, is for the Orange to play two of their old rivals per year, rotating through the old Big East allies and hopefully retaining some of the old Big East magic despite removing the conference label from the games.
http://www.vuhoops.com/villanova-basketball/2012/12/28/3810550/villanova-non-conference-games-with-cuse-discussed
Personally I believe Cuse, ND & Pitt need these games more than the C7. I think SJU & G'town could sell out their arenas with games against Duke, Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, etc. just as easily as they could with Cuse. And Pitt/ND/Loiuisville games could be replaced with many schools easily: Texas, Arizona, Gonzaga, Florida, Michigan & Mich St. come to mind.
Although it's not without risk, forming the C7 has opened up OCC scheduling to many opportunities and I hope C7 schools don't just give that flexibility away at the expense of recruiting opportunities for the nACC schools.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - nathanhm - 12-28-2012 05:57 PM
I'd like to continue the series with Cuse just because it sells tickets, gets ratings, and there is a ton of history. Doubleheaders at the Garden could be great way to do that: Cuse vs Gtown and St. John's vs UConn would be electric.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - ivet - 12-28-2012 08:46 PM
(12-28-2012 05:57 PM)nathanhm Wrote: I'd like to continue the series with Cuse just because it sells tickets, gets ratings, and there is a ton of history. Doubleheaders at the Garden could be great way to do that: Cuse vs Gtown and St. John's vs UConn would be electric.
I actually like this idea. Better yet we can do a Triple/quadruple HEADER! those two and add Providence/Seton Hall vs Cinci/Pitt. I wouldn't mind spending an entire day there...It'd be like March Madness.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - snowycuse - 12-28-2012 11:56 PM
(12-28-2012 01:33 PM)TheRock Wrote: Two articles about Boeheim's public push for to keep rivalries alive:
Quote:The Johnnies' most prized asset is their home floor, Madison Square Garden, and the rest of the league knows that. By leaving for the ACC, Syracuse is losing an opportunity to have its fans travel to the Garden for road games against St. John's. But Boeheim's looking to avoid that loss.
http://www.rumbleinthegarden.com/st-johns-red-storm-mens-basketball/2012/12/28/3811136/syracuse-acc-jim-boeheim-big-east-rivalries-st-johns
Quote:We're talking w/ St. John's and Georgetown right now, and Villanova. We're heavily into talks," the coach said during a radio show on a local ESPN radio station. The plan, he says, is for the Orange to play two of their old rivals per year, rotating through the old Big East allies and hopefully retaining some of the old Big East magic despite removing the conference label from the games.
http://www.vuhoops.com/villanova-basketball/2012/12/28/3810550/villanova-non-conference-games-with-cuse-discussed
Personally I believe Cuse, ND & Pitt need these games more than the C7. I think SJU & G'town could sell out their arenas with games against Duke, Kansas, UNC, Kentucky, etc. just as easily as they could with Cuse. And Pitt/ND/Loiuisville games could be replaced with many schools easily: Texas, Arizona, Gonzaga, Florida, Michigan & Mich St. come to mind.
Although it's not without risk, forming the C7 has opened up OCC scheduling to many opportunities and I hope C7 schools don't just give that flexibility away at the expense of recruiting opportunities for the nACC schools.
Fine line between NEED and WANT.
Syracuse, mostly to appease fans, WANTS or would like to play its old conference mates. They absolutely do not NEED to play anyone.
As I stated in another thread, based on historical scheduling trends, Cuse is going to give up a home game annually in order to work in Georgetown and the expected St. Johns (MSG)/Villanova (Philly) rotation. While this on the surface does not seem like a big deal a non-conference Cuse home game is 17K-20K in attendance depending on whether or not the students are home. This is a sell-out for just about any C7 school.
Personally I do not see the need for St. Johns. I would rather play Uconn at MSG and the Dome but they would never go for that deal so St. Johns it is. They are not a rival in anyone but Boeheims head. More to the point Syracuse, as they do for the Meadowlands in football, does not need a NYC based team to rent out a venue. MSG is not owned by St. Johns. We can play anyone there and do as well if not better than St. Johns would do without Syracuse. Together it is a nice game.
If Villanova does not want to continue the relationship with Syracuse it would be Temple or one of the other area schools. Villanova will do everything in their power to make sure they remain top dog and part of that is keeping a relationship with the top dogs in Northeast College Basketball; Syracuse, Uconn, etc.
Georgetown and Syracuse are now a non-conference rivalry and that could mean the chance at placing the game where they want on TV. Neither school is stupid enough to blow that opportunity.
I am privately hoping that ESPN gives Cuse enough money to make up losing home games in order to continue games annually with more than just Georgetown. If Cuse was willing to go to 17 home games or at least get us out of that stupid ACC/Big Ten Challenge we could continue playing Gtown, St. Johns, Nova, and Uconn annually.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - TheRock - 12-29-2012 07:37 AM
(12-28-2012 11:56 PM)snowycuse Wrote: Fine line between NEED and WANT.
Syracuse, mostly to appease fans, WANTS or would like to play its old conference mates. They absolutely do not NEED to play anyone.
As I stated in another thread, based on historical scheduling trends, Cuse is going to give up a home game annually in order to work in Georgetown and the expected St. Johns (MSG)/Villanova (Philly) rotation. While this on the surface does not seem like a big deal a non-conference Cuse home game is 17K-20K in attendance depending on whether or not the students are home. This is a sell-out for just about any C7 school.
Personally I do not see the need for St. Johns. I would rather play Uconn at MSG and the Dome but they would never go for that deal so St. Johns it is. They are not a rival in anyone but Boeheims head. More to the point Syracuse, as they do for the Meadowlands in football, does not need a NYC based team to rent out a venue. MSG is not owned by St. Johns. We can play anyone there and do as well if not better than St. Johns would do without Syracuse. Together it is a nice game.
If Villanova does not want to continue the relationship with Syracuse it would be Temple or one of the other area schools. Villanova will do everything in their power to make sure they remain top dog and part of that is keeping a relationship with the top dogs in Northeast College Basketball; Syracuse, Uconn, etc.
Georgetown and Syracuse are now a non-conference rivalry and that could mean the chance at placing the game where they want on TV. Neither school is stupid enough to blow that opportunity.
I am privately hoping that ESPN gives Cuse enough money to make up losing home games in order to continue games annually with more than just Georgetown. If Cuse was willing to go to 17 home games or at least get us out of that stupid ACC/Big Ten Challenge we could continue playing Gtown, St. Johns, Nova, and Uconn annually.
I agree with you that outside of the Hoya-Cuse rivalry there isn't another natural rivalry b/n the C7 & cuse that either couldn't live without going forward. But I disagree that there isn't a legitimate need for cuse to continue playing more C7 teams. Your post seems to imply that these games come down to $$ from selling out large arenas or a fanservice tour for cuse fans living throughout the Northeast, but actually scheduling these games is about maintaining recruiting pipelines first and foremost. Cuse is on the verge of discontinuing regular games in person and on tv against local teams from the NYC, Philly & DC (no more Maryland soon) markets, that's a huge hit to a program that will get little to no home market help in recruiting of hi-majors in the CNY metro (Dejuan Coleman being a recent exception of course).
Beoheim knows this which is why he has finally floated this idea publicly (It's not even a done deal yet). Remember only Mike Brey of the ACC-bound schools acknowledged this need to keep playing C7 (nBE at the time) schools at the final oBE BBall media day. Now with the C7 breaking off Beoheim sees an opportunity to strike & he's taking it, but not out of nostalgia or tradition, but simply to blunt the recruiting impact of the conference move...IMO it's a smart & necessary move on his part.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - johnbragg - 12-29-2012 07:55 AM
(12-29-2012 07:37 AM)TheRock Wrote: I agree with you that outside of the Hoya-Cuse rivalry there isn't another natural rivalry b/n the C7 & cuse that either couldn't live without going forward. But I disagree that there isn't a legitimate need for cuse to continue playing more C7 teams. Your post seems to imply that these games come down to $$ from selling out large arenas or a fanservice tour for cuse fans living throughout the Northeast, but actually scheduling these games is about maintaining recruiting pipelines first and foremost. Cuse is on the verge of discontinuing regular games in person and on tv against local teams from the NYC, Philly & DC (no more Maryland soon) markets, that's a huge hit to a program that will get little to no home market help in recruiting of hi-majors in the CNY metro (Dejuan Coleman being a recent exception of course).
Not exactly--he's saying that 'Cuse could replace Villanova with a home-and-home with Temple, and replace St Johns with an MSG game (or Newark or Barclays, if they had to) against any big name--Michigan, UNLV, Baylor, Gonzaga, Florida etc.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - TheRock - 12-29-2012 08:07 AM
(12-29-2012 07:55 AM)johnbragg Wrote:(12-29-2012 07:37 AM)TheRock Wrote: I agree with you that outside of the Hoya-Cuse rivalry there isn't another natural rivalry b/n the C7 & cuse that either couldn't live without going forward. But I disagree that there isn't a legitimate need for cuse to continue playing more C7 teams. Your post seems to imply that these games come down to $$ from selling out large arenas or a fanservice tour for cuse fans living throughout the Northeast, but actually scheduling these games is about maintaining recruiting pipelines first and foremost. Cuse is on the verge of discontinuing regular games in person and on tv against local teams from the NYC, Philly & DC (no more Maryland soon) markets, that's a huge hit to a program that will get little to no home market help in recruiting of hi-majors in the CNY metro (Dejuan Coleman being a recent exception of course).
Not exactly--he's saying that 'Cuse could replace Villanova with a home-and-home with Temple, and replace St Johns with an MSG game (or Newark or Barclays, if they had to) against any big name--Michigan, UNLV, Baylor, Gonzaga, Florida etc.
My earlier point was that all C7 teams need are games with those "other" teams, while cuse needs games with C7 or those "other" teams and games in C7 markets, which is going to be a scheduling issue every year. If you read Beoheim's quotes he's essentially saying playing the C7 schools is the best way for his program to maintain a consistent presence in these recruiting hotbeds.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - KnightLight - 12-31-2012 10:27 AM
Between all the tourns (nov & dec) at MSG, plus neutral site opportunities for Syracuse in the Garden, Cuse almost doesn't even need to play games "against" St Johns if they want to play at the Garden.
Sure...scheduling a game vs St Johns would be easy for them to do...but Cuse will always have other opportunities to play games at the Garden, especially during the non-conf part of the season (Nov & Dec)...just like Syracuse did in their game vs Temple at MSG.
NOTE: Syracuse does not have a conf game vs St Johns this year in NYC (only plays St Johns at CUSE this year).
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - NJRedMan - 12-31-2012 10:36 AM
I think they much rather just set up a long term deal with SJU than having to either pay MSG to rent the place for an OOC game (150K last I heard years ago) or trying to convince whatever tournament like Coaches vs Cancer to invite them every year. It can be done but it's a lot easier to just sign said deal with St. John's.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - snowycuse - 01-01-2013 11:10 AM
(12-31-2012 10:36 AM)NJRedMan Wrote: I think they much rather just set up a long term deal with SJU than having to either pay MSG to rent the place for an OOC game (150K last I heard years ago) or trying to convince whatever tournament like Coaches vs Cancer to invite them every year. It can be done but it's a lot easier to just sign said deal with St. John's.
No offense but Syracuse does not have to convince anyone to take them in a pre-season tournament. They just pick up the phone.
Next year we will play in the Maui Classic so a game with St. Johns at MSG makes sense. After that is where it gets dicey for me. Not sure how you work Villanova in if you keep Georgetown an annual game and are only playing two former Big East teams a year.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - orangefan - 01-02-2013 06:07 PM
How about SU, SJU, UConn and Rutgers in a two night Holiday Festival at the Garden.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - NJRedMan - 01-02-2013 06:13 PM
(01-02-2013 06:07 PM)orangefan Wrote: How about SU, SJU, UConn and Rutgers in a two night Holiday Festival at the Garden.
The Big Apple Classic!!!
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - snowycuse - 01-02-2013 10:28 PM
(01-02-2013 06:07 PM)orangefan Wrote: How about SU, SJU, UConn and Rutgers in a two night Holiday Festival at the Garden.
For those that might not be aware a program can play in a pre-season tournament once over a four year span. So in 2013 Cuse will play the Maui Classic and be ineligible to compete again until 2017. That is what would hold up the Dave Gavitt Classic style tournament scenario that some have kicked around featuring a C7 school and some combination of WVU, Uconn, Cuse, and Rutgers.
Theoretically a group of 4 could try and get into the same tournament every year. Syracuse for instance has a seemingly good relationship with the Gazelle Group that runs a number of NYC tournaments and thus typically have a spot every year in a pre-season tournament in the area with a few home games attached. You can play up to 4 pre-season tournament games in any one tournament. Could they package themselves with Uconn and St. Johns from here on out??? If the Gazelle Group wants Syracuse in 2016 for the Gotham Classic they take St. Johns and Uconn as well with Uconn playing Cuse in the Dome, St. Johns playing at Uconn, Cuse playing St. Johns at MSG along with a few throw in teams. In 2017 they all go into another tournament together with Cuse at Uconn, Uconn in the garden with St. Johns, St. Johns in the Dome. This might be the only way you see some of these games again despite it being messy, complicated, and far fetched.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - Captain Bearcat - 01-03-2013 10:48 PM
Similarly to this, I know it's important to UC to continue to play Depaul and St. John's. Those basketball games in Chicago and NYC were our best alumni events by a wide margin. Georgetown is a 3rd we'd like for alumni reasons. We'd probably want to keep the Marquette rivalry alive, too.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - billyjack - 01-09-2013 02:29 PM
http://www.providencejournal.com/topics/photos/featured/20130108-end-of-an-era.ece?ssimg=848622#ssTop848651
Tonight Syracuse plays at the Dunk in Providence for the final time, after 33 years together. Nice series of photos at the projo link.
Some of the years are incorrectly noted on these (Seikaly wasn't there in '84), but the photo set includes Billy Donovan, Ernie "Pop" Lewis, Ray Knight, Rafael Addison, Wendell Alexis, Matt Roe, Rony Seikaly, Marty Conlon, Carlton "Paco" Screen, Darryl Wright, Eric Williams, Herman Harried (wow, that's an obscure fourth string Orangeman center), Greg Monroe and lots more... I think even Andre Hawkins is in the background on one... and the "Phantom Friar" of '87...
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - NJRedMan - 01-09-2013 02:35 PM
(01-09-2013 02:29 PM)billyjack Wrote: http://www.providencejournal.com/topics/photos/featured/20130108-end-of-an-era.ece?ssimg=848622#ssTop848651
Tonight Syracuse plays at the Dunk in Providence for the final time, after 33 years together. Nice series of photos at the projo link.
Some of the years are incorrectly noted on these (Seikaly wasn't there in '84), but the photo set includes Billy Donovan, Ernie "Pop" Lewis, Ray Knight, Rafael Addison, Wendell Alexis, Matt Roe, Rony Seikaly, Marty Conlon, Carlton "Paco" Screen, Darryl Wright, Eric Williams, Herman Harried (wow, that's an obscure fourth string Orangeman center), Greg Monroe and lots more... I think even Andre Hawkins is in the background on one...
Ray Knight?
![[Image: 1103_large.jpg]](http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1986/1103_large.jpg)
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - billyjack - 01-09-2013 02:43 PM
(01-09-2013 02:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:(01-09-2013 02:29 PM)billyjack Wrote: http://www.providencejournal.com/topics/photos/featured/20130108-end-of-an-era.ece?ssimg=848622#ssTop848651
Tonight Syracuse plays at the Dunk in Providence for the final time, after 33 years together. Nice series of photos at the projo link.
Some of the years are incorrectly noted on these (Seikaly wasn't there in '84), but the photo set includes Billy Donovan, Ernie "Pop" Lewis, Ray Knight, Rafael Addison, Wendell Alexis, Matt Roe, Rony Seikaly, Marty Conlon, Carlton "Paco" Screen, Darryl Wright, Eric Williams, Herman Harried (wow, that's an obscure fourth string Orangeman center), Greg Monroe and lots more... I think even Andre Hawkins is in the background on one...
Ray Knight?
Man, you had to remind me of the 86 Series...? that's harsh...
Ray Knight was the backup center to Otis Thorpe in around '83 and '84.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - NJRedMan - 01-09-2013 02:44 PM
(01-09-2013 02:43 PM)billyjack Wrote:(01-09-2013 02:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:(01-09-2013 02:29 PM)billyjack Wrote: http://www.providencejournal.com/topics/photos/featured/20130108-end-of-an-era.ece?ssimg=848622#ssTop848651
Tonight Syracuse plays at the Dunk in Providence for the final time, after 33 years together. Nice series of photos at the projo link.
Some of the years are incorrectly noted on these (Seikaly wasn't there in '84), but the photo set includes Billy Donovan, Ernie "Pop" Lewis, Ray Knight, Rafael Addison, Wendell Alexis, Matt Roe, Rony Seikaly, Marty Conlon, Carlton "Paco" Screen, Darryl Wright, Eric Williams, Herman Harried (wow, that's an obscure fourth string Orangeman center), Greg Monroe and lots more... I think even Andre Hawkins is in the background on one...
Ray Knight?
Man, you had to remind me of the 86 Series...? that's harsh...
Ray Knight was the backup center to Otis Thorpe in around '83 and '84.
You guys lament that series, but you guys had the last laugh. That series doomed a generation of new york kids to be life long Mets fans. I watched it happen to my brother with my own two eyes. So sad...
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - brista21 - 01-09-2013 10:21 PM
(01-09-2013 02:44 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:(01-09-2013 02:43 PM)billyjack Wrote:(01-09-2013 02:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:(01-09-2013 02:29 PM)billyjack Wrote: http://www.providencejournal.com/topics/photos/featured/20130108-end-of-an-era.ece?ssimg=848622#ssTop848651
Tonight Syracuse plays at the Dunk in Providence for the final time, after 33 years together. Nice series of photos at the projo link.
Some of the years are incorrectly noted on these (Seikaly wasn't there in '84), but the photo set includes Billy Donovan, Ernie "Pop" Lewis, Ray Knight, Rafael Addison, Wendell Alexis, Matt Roe, Rony Seikaly, Marty Conlon, Carlton "Paco" Screen, Darryl Wright, Eric Williams, Herman Harried (wow, that's an obscure fourth string Orangeman center), Greg Monroe and lots more... I think even Andre Hawkins is in the background on one...
Ray Knight?
Man, you had to remind me of the 86 Series...? that's harsh...
Ray Knight was the backup center to Otis Thorpe in around '83 and '84.
You guys lament that series, but you guys had the last laugh. That series doomed a generation of new york kids to be life long Mets fans. I watched it happen to my brother with my own two eyes. So sad...
I'm so unbelievably pissed about the Hall of Fame vote today. Piazza shoulda been a shoe-in.
RE: Boeheim pitching for OOC Games with C7 - gosports1 - 01-10-2013 09:06 PM
(01-09-2013 02:29 PM)billyjack Wrote: http://www.providencejournal.com/topics/photos/featured/20130108-end-of-an-era.ece?ssimg=848622#ssTop848651
Tonight Syracuse plays at the Dunk in Providence for the final time, after 33 years together. Nice series of photos at the projo link.
Some of the years are incorrectly noted on these (Seikaly wasn't there in '84), but the photo set includes Billy Donovan, Ernie "Pop" Lewis, Ray Knight, Rafael Addison, Wendell Alexis, Matt Roe, Rony Seikaly, Marty Conlon, Carlton "Paco" Screen, Darryl Wright, Eric Williams, Herman Harried (wow, that's an obscure fourth string Orangeman center), Greg Monroe and lots more... I think even Andre Hawkins is in the background on one... and the "Phantom Friar" of '87...
very sad even though the series was for the most part one-sided