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This should end the debate...but i know it won't - slappywhite - 09-28-2011 09:44 PM
The debate being that ETSU athletics has not benefited from the elimination of football. I started thinking about how to measure that. So I figured since Appalachian football is thrown up constantly in comparison on this board I would use them. Although, you really cannot compare ETSU football with APP football. Come on, Kidd Brewer is probably one of the top 10 places to take in a college FB game in the country. Yes, the whole country. But I’ll let you have them. I’m also going to compare WCU too. I believe they are more on par with what ETSU is in comparison, at least before we decided to move along.
2010 National Rankings By sport:
ETSU APP WCU
Mens BB 81 195 167
W-BB 104 64 234
Baseball 40 134 190
Mens Soccer 38 72 ---
Mens Tennis 51 --- ---
Mens Golf 83 231 199
Womens Golf 87 145 77
Womens Soccer 270 218 257
Football --- 125? 300?
I lost interest in volleyball and track, but you should get the picture. I thought to myself “success” for a school like ETSU, I think a sport should be in the top 100 in the nation…low and behold…results don’t lie. Now is this success because we dropped football? That’s not for me to say. But it looks to me in all but 1 very insignificant sport per school, ETSU is smoking both APP and WCU. Now don’t go off on a tangent about this ranking or that one. I didn’t pick and choose, I’m not gonna spend all night on this and I took the first one I came to. They should be pretty accurate though. And I can’t rank tennis as it only went to the top 75 teams.
As for football, no doubt APP looks good on paper, but take away 2 or 3 weeks 5 years ago and they are all but invisible on the national level. Take Michigan out (which was a great win) and they have been smoked to the tune of 238-83 vs. their last six Div. 1A opponents. Yes there was VT, LSU, and Fla in those losses, but also 1A powerhouses ECU, NC State and Kansas. And they want to go play up in all their sports? WCU…can’t even rank them…2-10 in FBS last year, and playing the likes of Gardner Webb and Tusculum (which they lost) as non conf. opponents. BUT, they did average over 7500 per game with two games over 10000. ETSU rarely got 7500 to a game, certainly didn’t average that.
We have 3 very nice new facilities on campus, about to be a fourth with baseball. We fired coaches of the only two sports mentioned that are not in the top 100 NATIONALLY, women’s soccer and softball. Overall athletics GPA is around 3.2, and you rarely hear of ETSU teams or its members being in a lot of trouble. Is it where I want it? No , I think we can do better. Do I think it is as bad as some folks think? No way. This is not a NO FOOTBALL rant. I think football done correctly can work and is sorely needed. But to say athletics as a whole is dying….the numbers don’t lie.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - Buc66 - 09-29-2011 10:46 AM
Here at Buccaneer Nation - The Official Forum of ETSU Athletics - Bring Back Buccaneer Football, the forum that IS the Discussion Board of BFFF, I find this post to be one of your most preposterous, if not totally incoherent to date. This debate never has been about whether the elimination of football benefited ETSU athletics or not. You and the ETSU Athletic Department can only wish that this is the debate so that you can march out your TOTALLY IRRELEVANT little rankings (outside of basketball and maybe baseball), show your little new venues (where's the new basketball arena in this eight year old $100 Mil Athletic Capital Campaign?), and pronounce your new above the fray philosophy of intercollegiate athletics (of which no other school in the nation has duplicated). The debate is whether ETSU should reinstate football or not with no concern whatsoever of the impact on minor sports. We know that it was dropped in a cloud of lies. We know that the athletic department finally in 2007 admitted the reason for the elimination of football, to "fully fund" the other sports (did basketball make it into that group?). Those of us who believe that football should never have been eliminated (and you've agreed with that on other posts) in the first place will never engage you in this debate. That would mean that we've accepted the new ETSU model, accepted the way the athletic department is being managed (the way almost $11 mil annually is being spent), and engage in a debate out of that context. Even if "ETSU is smoking App" (that's really funny) in these other sports that you list, especially the invisible ones, by the measure you select, WHO CARES? (except a tiny few, mostly inside the ETSU Athletic Department). And you and your partner, GoBucs, are all in favor of football returning if "done correctly" and does not reallocate any of the current $11 mil annually to football. What you continue to ignore and pretend never happened is that football money is what is now being used to "fully fund" these other sports. You guys are a hoot.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - Goldfinger - 09-29-2011 11:07 AM
(09-28-2011 09:44 PM)slappywhite Wrote: I lost interest in volleyball and track
I lost interest after MBB
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - buckys - 09-29-2011 12:11 PM
Thanks, Slappy, for agreeing that you lost interest in volleyball and track. Now why can't you understand why thousands have lost interest in the entire ETSU sports program? IMO, if any school downgrades their program, interest wanes. Just ask Austin Peay what happened to their athletic support when they dropped football. Their president was qouted as saying "it was the worst decision ever made concerning their athletic program". Austin Peay's president then started a football fund raising program which brought back OVC football and renovated their stadium.
Things get done by people who want things done, not by people that don't want to do them.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - slappywhite - 09-29-2011 12:50 PM
(09-29-2011 12:11 PM)buckys Wrote: Thanks, Slappy, for agreeing that you lost interest in volleyball and track. Now why can't you understand why thousands have lost interest in the entire ETSU sports program? IMO, if any school downgrades their program, interest wanes. Just ask Austin Peay what happened to their athletic support when they dropped football. Their president was qouted as saying "it was the worst decision ever made concerning their athletic program". Austin Peay's president then started a football fund raising program which brought back OVC football and renovated their stadium.
Things get done by people who want things done, not by people that don't want to do them.
Again, buckys and 66, you read the first two lines and jump off the cliff. The debate leads to the point i have been trying to make to you guys...whether i, you or anybody else agrees with me, on paper, etsu athletics is doing as a whole better than when we had football. Even if it is written on toilet paper. The numbers above and the improvements they have made in facilities, and NCAA violations are all that will matter to a new president. You guys expect the new president to come in and say that athletics stinks, and has stunk under this AD and fire him. First, I dont think ETSU has EVER fired an AD. Across the landscape of college athletics, AD's are fired for one of two reasons, Loss of instiutional control or unfulfilled athletics expectations. With those parameters, this AD is doing just fine. Do i completely beleive that? No, but like you, me and the others howling for football, its not up to us. The football camp has to convince the new president of that, and i just dont think that they can given their current message. Do I give two +#%@*'s about the other sports other than MBB and BB, no. Do I think the Fall around the ETSU campus is an abyssmal dissapointmet? Absolutely. What thousands of people. The thousands that never came to FB games over the years? What sports are you going to reallocate from? The ones that are not producing results? Title 9 wont let that happen. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN.....by just repeating this same old rant is not going to work. What is the plan? Then, what is the plan when the new president does not fire the AD upon arrival?
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - bucfan81 - 09-29-2011 01:19 PM
Just implement the plan from ANY OTHER state university in Tennessee. That is the plan we need. Being a mecca on minor sports is just not good enough.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - slappywhite - 09-29-2011 01:32 PM
THE PLAN that convinces them that ANY OTHER state university in Tenneessee is better off than we are....and have hard evidence to back that up. These pinhead academia types dont know the difference between a minor and major sport. Where is a wall I can bang my head against....
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - bucfan81 - 09-29-2011 01:42 PM
That is where bringing in a new president comes in. Get a competent person who has experience running a state university that has a normal athletic program with a full marching band and some level of football. Then it involves getting an AD that was NOT previously a tennis coach. These people will not WANT to the the oddball of the state.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - slappywhite - 09-29-2011 01:52 PM
(09-29-2011 01:42 PM)bucfan81 Wrote: That is where bringing in a new president comes in. Get a competent person who has experience running a state university that has a normal athletic program with a full marching band and some level of football. Then it involves getting an AD that was NOT previously a tennis coach. These people will not WANT to the the oddball of the state.
Oh...why didnt you say that in the first place? That sounds like a great plan. That should work out well for you....
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - bucfan81 - 09-29-2011 02:27 PM
(09-29-2011 01:52 PM)slappywhite Wrote:(09-29-2011 01:42 PM)bucfan81 Wrote: That is where bringing in a new president comes in. Get a competent person who has experience running a state university that has a normal athletic program with a full marching band and some level of football. Then it involves getting an AD that was NOT previously a tennis coach. These people will not WANT to the the oddball of the state.
Oh...why didnt you say that in the first place? That sounds like a great plan. That should work out well for you....
It has worked for every other state university in Tennessee. They have Homecomings that are not based around a Charity Carnival.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - Buccaneerlover - 09-29-2011 03:54 PM
Yet the perception from the general public/region will continue to be that Appalachian has a better athletic department.
By the way, Western's president has basically put their athletic department on notice, he wants improvement or else.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - BucNut22 - 09-30-2011 03:26 PM
Here's what you haven't factored into your equation. Dropping football lead to leaving the SOCON and coming to A-Sun which has ARTIFICIALLY inflated the quality of many of the "non-revenue" sports. Not to mention it has lowered not just the perception but interest in ETSU sports altogether (no matter how much A-Sun officials try to pump up the "rivalry" with Kennesaw State) With all due respect to coach Kemp, the women's program would likely not being having this level of success were it still in the SOCON. The same goes for many of the other sports. Despite what you and Dave Mullins would like to believe, ETSU basketball has NOT gone "next level" as we were told dropping football would allow us to do. In fact we've taken steps backwards not forward, and are certainly no where near the next level.
This may be hard for you to understand but success is relative. We could drop down to D2 and produce a high level of "success." That doesn't mean our sports have actually gotten any better.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - Buc66 - 09-30-2011 04:36 PM
(09-30-2011 03:26 PM)BucNut22 Wrote: Here's what you haven't factored into your equation. Dropping football lead to leaving the SOCON and coming to A-Sun which has ARTIFICIALLY inflated the quality of many of the "non-revenue" sports. Not to mention it has lowered not just the perception but interest in ETSU sports altogether (no matter how much A-Sun officials try to pump up the "rivalry" with Kennesaw State) With all due respect to coach Kemp, the women's program would likely not being having this level of success were it still in the SOCON. The same goes for many of the other sports. Despite what you and Dave Mullins would like to believe, ETSU basketball has NOT gone "next level" as we were told dropping football would allow us to do. In fact we've taken steps backwards not forward, and are certainly no where near the next level.
This may be hard for you to understand but success is relative. We could drop down to D2 and produce a high level of "success." That doesn't mean our sports have actually gotten any better.
That about sizes up the situation.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - slappywhite - 09-30-2011 11:02 PM
that doesnt size up %#@*. Those are national rankings, not conference or asun. it wudent matter if we were in the asun, socon, swac,etc. i agree that we have not stepped up to any higher level of play in mens or womens bball and that should be addressed. But all of the other sports have. They should not be chastised for that. Mbball is fair game. It has regresses. Cant touch womens bball with kemp coaching. she is untouchable as long as she stays .500. There have been those on this board who want a DII football team. again the double standard for football and the rest of other sports.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - BuccTiger - 09-30-2011 11:52 PM
(09-30-2011 11:02 PM)slappywhite Wrote: that doesnt size up %#@*. Those are national rankings, not conference or asun. it wudent matter if we were in the asun, socon, swac,etc. i agree that we have not stepped up to any higher level of play in mens or womens bball and that should be addressed. But all of the other sports have. They should not be chastised for that. Mbball is fair game. It has regresses. Cant touch womens bball with kemp coaching. she is untouchable as long as she stays .500. There have been those on this board who want a DII football team. again the double standard for football and the rest of other sports.
Dude, you are wasting your time. These guys live in a reality distortion field.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - RodShaw2 - 10-01-2011 12:20 AM
(09-30-2011 11:02 PM)slappywhite Wrote: that doesnt size up %#@*. Those are national rankings, not conference or asun. it wudent matter if we were in the asun, socon, swac,etc. i agree that we have not stepped up to any higher level of play in mens or womens bball and that should be addressed. But all of the other sports have. They should not be chastised for that. Mbball is fair game. It has regresses. Cant touch womens bball with kemp coaching. she is untouchable as long as she stays .500. There have been those on this board who want a DII football team. again the double standard for football and the rest of other sports.
I know I posted it once before and I am not going to go back and redo it but ETSU womens basketball has a losing recording againist the SoCon since they left.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - Buc66 - 10-01-2011 08:39 AM
(09-30-2011 11:02 PM)slappywhite Wrote: that doesnt size up %#@*. Those are national rankings, not conference or asun. it wudent matter if we were in the asun, socon, swac,etc. i agree that we have not stepped up to any higher level of play in mens or womens bball and that should be addressed. But all of the other sports have. They should not be chastised for that. Mbball is fair game. It has regresses. Cant touch womens bball with kemp coaching. she is untouchable as long as she stays .500. There have been those on this board who want a DII football team. again the double standard for football and the rest of other sports.
Those little rankings of invisible sports is what doesn"t size up to %#@*. Its good to have the rankings, but they don't size up to jack except for a tiny few mostly in the athletic department. Again, no chastising of any sport - its always good when any Buc team wins: the chastising is for the completely backwards athletic model that ETSU is spending almost $11 mil a year on - these invisible sports are just the symptom of that BIG PROBLEM!
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - BucNut22 - 10-01-2011 02:36 PM
(09-30-2011 11:02 PM)slappywhite Wrote: that doesnt size up %#@*. Those are national rankings, not conference or asun. it wudent matter if we were in the asun, socon, swac,etc. i agree that we have not stepped up to any higher level of play in mens or womens bball and that should be addressed. But all of the other sports have. They should not be chastised for that. Mbball is fair game. It has regresses. Cant touch womens bball with kemp coaching. she is untouchable as long as she stays .500. There have been those on this board who want a DII football team. again the double standard for football and the rest of other sports.I`m not saying anything should be done with Coach Kemp, my point is that level of success of the women's program is relative. Now coach Kemp's recruiting has reached a level where the Lady Bucs can compete nationally but the likely hood of that occurring were ETSU still in the SOCON are slim. After all the Lady Bucs had a losing record in the SOCON. The same goes for track and softball, though the A-Sun is appears to be a better baseball conference.
As for wanting a DII football team, you have to understand the level of frustration and despair that has set in. Some are willing to settle for a D2 or non-scholarship football program just to have a football program, or at the very least build a football foundation. I am not among them as I believe ETSU can and should complete at the D1-AA level. Considering the revenue that can be obtained by playing D1-A teams it is a no brainer.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - ETSUfan1 - 10-01-2011 05:12 PM
I think you guys are confusing D I-AA non scholarship and D2. If you are DI, you must play every sport at the DI level(except for a few schools that are grandfathered in for such sports as hockey and lacrosse.) Some on here would deal with the I-AA non-scholarship route, but I would very much prefer a team with scholarships.
RE: This should end the debate...but i know it won't - slappywhite - 10-01-2011 08:45 PM
(09-30-2011 11:52 PM)BuccTiger Wrote:(09-30-2011 11:02 PM)slappywhite Wrote: that doesnt size up %#@*. Those are national rankings, not conference or asun. it wudent matter if we were in the asun, socon, swac,etc. i agree that we have not stepped up to any higher level of play in mens or womens bball and that should be addressed. But all of the other sports have. They should not be chastised for that. Mbball is fair game. It has regresses. Cant touch womens bball with kemp coaching. she is untouchable as long as she stays .500. There have been those on this board who want a DII football team. again the double standard for football and the rest of other sports.
Dude, you are wasting your time. These guys live in a reality distortion field.
which guys? the delusional football only guys or the delusional support what we got guys?