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RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - UofL07 - 07-07-2009 03:39 PM
(07-06-2009 08:39 PM)templefootballfan Wrote: Long range plan for BE should be to keep Tripod together [Syc,Conn,Rutgers]
Does regional conf with Del & RI acomplish that. Now Mass should be looked at.
It is hard to fight against bigger money conferences. Short of getting PSU, ND, Maryland, and BC into the conference, any one of those programs would leave for the more profitable Big Ten. While neither a regional conference with Delaware and UMass nor the current conference configuration would keep those schools together if the Big Ten came knocking, a regional conference may stave off ACC expansion into the region. Consider this:
- A regional conference with UMass and Delaware would have significantly lower travel costs for teams like UConn, Syracuse, and Rutgers. If any of those teams joined the ACC, they'd be looking at much higher travel bills (Boston College anyone?).
- Delaware and UMass would help raise the academic profile of the Big East. Would it be on par with the ACC? No. But it may help convince an academic oriented school like Cuse to stick around rather than bolting.
- It would strengthen the conference's identity. If the money was relatively close (within a million or two per year), then teams may decided that it is better to be part of a regional conference they can identify with rather than becoming an outlier like BC.
All of the above is speculation because I don't know how the presidents at those three institutions think. However, I do believe a regional conference would probably increase the chance that those schools would turn down an ACC invitation. No one would turn down the SEC or Big Ten, but it might let us hold our own against the ACC.
(07-06-2009 08:39 PM)templefootballfan Wrote: A conf [east of the Miss river] that crosses over NE, Midwest,South & Fla,
athleticly & acadamicly can attract alot of talent.
Under those guidelines, the conference might want to consider Southern Mississippi and UAB. The Deep South has some great fans and fantastic football talent. Granted, travel costs would explode and the conference would be a distant thought to the SEC, but still...
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - omniorange - 07-07-2009 03:43 PM
(07-07-2009 03:22 PM)UofL07 Wrote:(07-06-2009 06:15 PM)omnicarrier Wrote: My main objection to it is we already have 2 members out of 8 that are new to 1-A this century. Pushing it to 4 out of 10 just doesn't sit well with me when I see it initially.
I can fully understand your point Niel and I think it is a valid criticism. Taking two new FBS programs wouldn't sit well with many people and I think that such a move would place a short term stigma on the league. Unfortunately for my proposal, that criticism is something that simply can't be overcome in the short term. However, I would argue that any realistic (meaning no PSU, Maryland, ND, BC, Miami) expansion scenario would also place a stigma on the league. Consider this:
Memphis
- Memphis' bowl record is 4-3 with only two bowl appearances before 2003.
- Memphis has never played in the Liberty Bowl.
- Memphis has never won a conference football title
- Memphis' all-time record is 426-442-33
- Memphis' was a founding member of C-USA in 1996 but has yet to win a conference title.
Temple
- Temple's bowl record is 2 -1 with their last appearance in 1979.
- Temple's all-time record is 387–506–52
- Temple is the only school in the country to have lost its status as a BCS program.
UCF
- UCF's all-time record is 166–156–1 (including lower division wins)
- UCF is 0-2 in post-season bowls
- UCF has won one conference title since joining a conference in 2002
- UCF upgraded to D-1A in 1996
ECU
- ECU's all-time record is 381–352–11
- ECU's post season record is 8-6
- ECU has 6 conference titles (1 C-USA title)
Out of all of those teams, ECU is the only team that has a long history of preforming relatively well on the field. Memphis and Temple help the perception of the football conference and UCF, like UConn and USF, is a relative newcomer to the ranks of FBS. Unfortunately, ECU has the past success while the rest have the TV markets.
My point is, either way the conference goes, it is probably going to receive some stigma from taking teams from a lower conference or upgrades from a lower division.
Hail UofL07!
Keep trying.
While I agree none of the available candidates, with the possible exception of ECU, helps the BE football perception - UMass and UDel hurt it the most. On top of that, it could be argued they offer the least in terms of market penetration as well.
UDel is not in Philly, at least Temple is. And they play at the Linc. Too bad they can't get anyone to show for their games.
UMass resides in Amherst, in the western portion of the state of Massachusetts. And unlike in the South, there is no great affinity for the state flagship schools in either MA or NY. Privates rule those states.
I think both schools have excellent academics, which the BE football presidents would like, but I just don't see it in terms of athletics.
Cheers,
Neil
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - UofL07 - 07-07-2009 03:45 PM
(07-06-2009 11:49 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote: Are UMass and UDel willing to commit to building under these terms?
I can't answer that because I'm not in charge at UMass or Delaware. However, consider what many of our own programs have done to gain admission to the Big East. Cincinnati was willing to push $120+ million into athletics in order to gain admission to the Big East. Louisville has dumped well over $100 million into athletics to boost its athletic profile. The state of Connecticut dropped $90 million for a football stadium to get the Huskies into FBS and a BCS conference. My guess is if the Big East approached UMass and Delaware with what would equate to a golden ticket (BCS membership in a regional Northeast based conference), they would find the money to upgrade their facilities to the required level. One thing to remember is that both schools are state flagship institutions and have a much better chance of receiving funding from the state than Louisville or Cincinnati did.
(07-06-2009 11:49 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote: But, the more important question: Are the eight remaining football programs willing to stand pat and commit to this league?
Good question.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - UofL07 - 07-07-2009 03:54 PM
(07-07-2009 08:05 AM)Krocker Krapp Wrote: I do not understand the idea of leaving the current hybrid only to go into a different hybrid. What it equates to is simply kicking a couple of schools out of the conference when everything is said and done. The only purpose of a split should be to form an all-sports league
The hybrid I proposed isn't the same as our current hybrid conference arrangement because it would be time-limited. If UMass or Delaware failed to make the minimum requirements for full admission (i.e. they didn't get funding for a stadium, they failed to make progress on getting a stadium built, etc.), then they would be ejected from the league. This gives the conference more time to see if any of the C-USA targets (Memphis, ECU, UCF) had improved significantly and separated themselves as a cut above their peers.
Ultimately, both the hybrid I proposed or a C-USA expansion model end the same - formation of an all-sports league.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - UofL07 - 07-07-2009 03:54 PM
(07-07-2009 06:41 AM)mlb Wrote: I can't see URI or UMASS ever becoming big programs in football. There is not enough football talent in the NE
There is a lot of talent in PA, NJ, and MD that current gets funneled into the Big Ten and ACC. Remember, UMass and Delaware aren't confined to recruit their own state only.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - Krocker Krapp - 07-07-2009 04:40 PM
(07-07-2009 12:21 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:(07-07-2009 08:05 AM)Krocker Krapp Wrote: We only need nine schools for football. Ten is unnecessary ...
10 is perfect for basketball purposes though. 18 game, round-robin schedule, especially for the northeast.
You should have kept my entire statement in your quote. I am talking about expanding the current hybrid to 18 schools, not splitting, which also works quite well.
We would have the perfect number of 9 in football and we would play a single round-robin in basketball plus a second game against each team's primary opponent.
That means Pitt and West Virginia would play a second time, Louisville and Cincinnati would play a second time, etc. It is much better than the current scheduling.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - TexanMark - 07-07-2009 06:46 PM
(07-07-2009 02:57 PM)UofL07 Wrote:(07-06-2009 05:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote: Too many Div 1A FB mouths in the Northeast is bad.
I'm not convinced that would be the case. For example, Delaware and UMass could recruit Maryland, south New Jersey, and Eastern Pennsylvania Philadelphia area. Would they recruit against some of the current Big East schools? Yes. But it is also important to remember that many ACC and Big Ten schools mine that area as well. IMO, funneling more of the New Jersey/PA/Maryland talent pool into Big East hands and away from the ACC and Big Ten would be a good thing.
Problem is those are traditional recruiting areas for Syr, Rut, Pitt and UConn. We fight for the next batch of kids after the national programs cherry pick those willing to leave the NE or not go to PSU.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - TexanMark - 07-07-2009 06:48 PM
Okay so an 18 team league:
My nominees are (at this current moment):
Memphis and Butler
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - PGPirate - 07-07-2009 07:23 PM
(07-07-2009 06:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote: Okay so an 18 team league:
My nominees are (at this current moment):
Memphis and Butler
I thought we were friends, Mark
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - TexanMark - 07-07-2009 08:30 PM
(07-07-2009 07:23 PM)PGPirate Wrote:(07-07-2009 06:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote: Okay so an 18 team league:
My nominees are (at this current moment):
Memphis and Butler
Wait tomorrow my nominees are:
ECU and Xavier
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - PGPirate - 07-07-2009 08:37 PM
(07-07-2009 08:30 PM)TexanMark Wrote:(07-07-2009 07:23 PM)PGPirate Wrote:(07-07-2009 06:48 PM)TexanMark Wrote: Okay so an 18 team league:
My nominees are (at this current moment):
Memphis and Butler
Wait tomorrow my nominees are:
ECU and Xavier
You're reinvited to Dowdy-Ficklen once more
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - LastMinuteman - 07-07-2009 09:12 PM
(07-07-2009 03:43 PM)omnicarrier Wrote: While I agree none of the available candidates, with the possible exception of ECU, helps the BE football perception - UMass and UDel hurt it the most. On top of that, it could be argued they offer the least in terms of market penetration as well.
UMass resides in Amherst, in the western portion of the state of Massachusetts. And unlike in the South, there is no great affinity for the state flagship schools in either MA or NY. Privates rule those states.
Being located in the west doesn't really hurt UMass. Most UMass students come from the area surrounding Boston and return there after graduation. UMass can claim the largest number of alumni in the Boston TV market regardless of the campus's location. And yes, it's a pro sports city, but it's still the third largest TV market in the eastern United States. 28% of Boston still represents more TV sets than 100% of Memphis.
As for butts in the seats, being in western Mass may actually help insulate UMass a bit from the pro teams. We're the only show out west. Compared head-to-head with Boston College, UMass has higher attendance for non-conference basketball games (they kill us though when the ACC schedule starts), and in hockey, where BC and UMass play in the same conference, UMass has higher attendance for conference games as well. And this is despite the fact that BC had a tournament basketball team that beat UNC and Duke and were the defending national champions in hockey, while UMass had terrible seasons in both sports. (For non-northerners wondering why the hell I'm mentioning a minor sport, note that BC Hockey outdraws BC Basketball and UMass Hockey nearly outdraws UMass Basketball.)
Give UMass a sports league that matters and they'll carry Boston at least as well as BC does. Most people seem to agree that BC is a slam dunk to re-admit if they ever want back into the Big East, so what else do you need from UMass besides FBS football?
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - omniorange - 07-07-2009 10:02 PM
(07-07-2009 09:12 PM)LastMinuteman Wrote:(07-07-2009 03:43 PM)omnicarrier Wrote: While I agree none of the available candidates, with the possible exception of ECU, helps the BE football perception - UMass and UDel hurt it the most. On top of that, it could be argued they offer the least in terms of market penetration as well.
UMass resides in Amherst, in the western portion of the state of Massachusetts. And unlike in the South, there is no great affinity for the state flagship schools in either MA or NY. Privates rule those states.
Being located in the west doesn't really hurt UMass. Most UMass students come from the area surrounding Boston and return there after graduation. UMass can claim the largest number of alumni in the Boston TV market regardless of the campus's location. And yes, it's a pro sports city, but it's still the third largest TV market in the eastern United States. 28% of Boston still represents more TV sets than 100% of Memphis.
As for butts in the seats, being in western Mass may actually help insulate UMass a bit from the pro teams. We're the only show out west. Compared head-to-head with Boston College, UMass has higher attendance for non-conference basketball games (they kill us though when the ACC schedule starts), and in hockey, where BC and UMass play in the same conference, UMass has higher attendance for conference games as well. And this is despite the fact that BC had a tournament basketball team that beat UNC and Duke and were the defending national champions in hockey, while UMass had terrible seasons in both sports. (For non-northerners wondering why the hell I'm mentioning a minor sport, note that BC Hockey outdraws BC Basketball and UMass Hockey nearly outdraws UMass Basketball.)
Give UMass a sports league that matters and they'll carry Boston at least as well as BC does. Most people seem to agree that BC is a slam dunk to re-admit if they ever want back into the Big East, so what else do you need from UMass besides FBS football?
BC would be a slam dunk because the league KNOWS their value already. They've proven themselves with 10 straight winning seasons, finishing in the Top 25 of the polls in 5 of those seasons, getting as high as #2 in the polls during one of those seasons, having the highest rated ACC game on Thursday night ever (opposite a Boston Red Sox playoff game no less), averaging 40K+ for football games, etc.
Their bb attendance is weak, but that is because they refuse to rent the TDBank arena for some of their higher profile games (UNC and Duke, in the ACC - UConn and Syracuse in the Big East) because they know (at first anyway) the other teams' fans would outnumber their own. They fail to recognize how much that would improve their profile in Boston and generate new buzz and enthusiasm for them and help improve recruiting.
As for hockey, it's not a sport that is offered by the league, so I don't think it cares.
You'd have been better off talking about your men's lacrosse program and how that could help the league. But then CardinalJim might give you an old-fashioned butt-whoopin' for even bringing it up.
Cheers,
Neil
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - UofL07 - 07-07-2009 11:16 PM
(07-07-2009 10:02 PM)omnicarrier Wrote: BC would be a slam dunk because the league KNOWS their value already.
The league should also know that Boston College has a tendency to lie about its intentions regarding conference affiliation. Frankly, I don't want Louisville or the Big East to associate with a program like BC. It is one thing to leave a conference and make your intentions known, it is a different thing to say your staying while you are negotiating backroom deals to leave.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - UofL07 - 07-07-2009 11:23 PM
Another advantage to adding UMass and Delaware to the league versus adding the usual C-USA suspects.
Both Delaware and UMass sponsor Lacrosse. This means that the Big East will be able to continue to sponsor the sport whereas under other expansion proposals, it would likely have to drop it (or us associated members).
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - omniorange - 07-07-2009 11:47 PM
(07-07-2009 11:16 PM)UofL07 Wrote:(07-07-2009 10:02 PM)omnicarrier Wrote: BC would be a slam dunk because the league KNOWS their value already.
The league should also know that Boston College has a tendency to lie about its intentions regarding conference affiliation. Frankly, I don't want Louisville or the Big East to associate with a program like BC. It is one thing to leave a conference and make your intentions known, it is a different thing to say your staying while you are negotiating backroom deals to leave.
And I respect your right to feel that way, as long as you understand that if the Beagles did ever want back in, the league would take them.
Cheers,
Neil
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - 3drain - 07-07-2009 11:56 PM
(07-07-2009 11:23 PM)UofL07 Wrote: Another advantage to adding UMass and Delaware to the league versus adding the usual C-USA suspects.
Both Delaware and UMass sponsor Lacrosse. This means that the Big East will be able to continue to sponsor the sport whereas under other expansion proposals, it would likely have to drop it (or us associated members).
Seriously. I'm not the most insightful person when it comes to expansion, but I would think adding UMASS and Delaware to the big east would be going backwards instead of progressing forward. If not a C-USA school then why not a Temple or Buffalo. They are right in your backyard and yes I know all the complaints of those two schools but they're still a notch or two above where UMASS and Delaware need to be.
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - bitcruncher - 07-08-2009 09:15 AM
(07-07-2009 11:47 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:All current BEast members would b!tch slap 'em at every opportunity too. If BC ever leaves the ACC, they can forget about playing for conference championships...(07-07-2009 11:16 PM)UofL07 Wrote:And I respect your right to feel that way, as long as you understand that if the Beagles did ever want back in, the league would take them.(07-07-2009 10:02 PM)omnicarrier Wrote: BC would be a slam dunk because the league KNOWS their value already.The league should also know that Boston College has a tendency to lie about its intentions regarding conference affiliation. Frankly, I don't want Louisville or the Big East to associate with a program like BC. It is one thing to leave a conference and make your intentions known, it is a different thing to say your staying while you are negotiating backroom deals to leave.
Cheers,
Neil
They can probably forget about it right now. I think they've shot their wad in the ACC already...
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - TexanMark - 07-08-2009 11:24 AM
(07-07-2009 11:56 PM)3drain Wrote:(07-07-2009 11:23 PM)UofL07 Wrote: Another advantage to adding UMass and Delaware to the league versus adding the usual C-USA suspects.
Both Delaware and UMass sponsor Lacrosse. This means that the Big East will be able to continue to sponsor the sport whereas under other expansion proposals, it would likely have to drop it (or us associated members).
Seriously. I'm not the most insightful person when it comes to expansion, but I would think adding UMASS and Delaware to the big east would be going backwards instead of progressing forward. If not a C-USA school then why not a Temple or Buffalo. They are right in your backyard and yes I know all the complaints of those two schools but they're still a notch or two above where UMASS and Delaware need to be.
Syracuse would not want Buffalo. They are the Flagship in Upstate NY why would they want to share?
RE: Hybrid Model with Planned Full Membership - SO#1 - 07-08-2009 12:05 PM
(07-07-2009 11:56 PM)3drain Wrote:(07-07-2009 11:23 PM)UofL07 Wrote: Another advantage to adding UMass and Delaware to the league versus adding the usual C-USA suspects.
Both Delaware and UMass sponsor Lacrosse. This means that the Big East will be able to continue to sponsor the sport whereas under other expansion proposals, it would likely have to drop it (or us associated members).
Seriously. I'm not the most insightful person when it comes to expansion, but I would think adding UMASS and Delaware to the big east would be going backwards instead of progressing forward. If not a C-USA school then why not a Temple or Buffalo. They are right in your backyard and yes I know all the complaints of those two schools but they're still a notch or two above where UMASS and Delaware need to be.
In the state of Tennessee, even if UT goes 0-12, they still would out draw Memphis, twice as many butts. It’s very hard to over come. Cincinnati doesn’t have media represent them in the Big East Football media day. Are they not in BCS league? And the sad part of all of this is I believe Memphis is the best choice of the three CUSA schools.
A notch or two above or below is only applied for today but you need to look 5, 10 and 20 years from now. When they form the Big East, UConn was a no body compare to Providence College, St. John’s, Seton Hall they were head and shoulder above us. Now we are trying to come up with a way to get rid of these schools that can’t compete in a league that they help to form.