I believe the Oakland teams share a stadium.

The Dolphins and the Marlins shared until this year.

Can't think of any more right now but those go against what you say are the rules laid down by the NFL and MLB.

(12-19-2011 01:28 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  I'd like to see those attendance numbers adjusted after removing mandatory student trips (busloads)

Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

(12-18-2011 08:32 AM)QSECOFR Wrote:  Everyone knew this place was going to be a white elephant before the first spade of dirt was turned. It sits on a piece of property that would have been absolutely perfect for a casino. It is just another example of the quality of "city leaders" that Cincinnati has.

Ugh. I'm not a fan of casinos, period, so pardon me if I cringe when someone suggests it be put front and center. They are money sponges so I wouldn't want it there.

In defense of the Freedom Center (I've never been, so I cannot firmly comment on its intrinsic value), there are historic and symbolic reasons why it was put directly on the riverfront. The underground railroad is an important part of this region's history, so I have no problem with the location.

I have a few days off during the holidays, so I'll make a point to head on down to tour the Freedom Center. I'm overdue.

(12-20-2011 01:36 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 08:49 AM)EcFlay Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 04:12 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I guess I'm the only one who was fascinated by the history the Freedom Center had to offer when I visited. Thought it was really cool. I thought the tourguides did a nice job as well. I think it would be a shame to lose something so unique. I hope they find a business model that works for them.

(12-19-2011 05:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  I am not sure what kind of exhibits they have there, but related to the Undergound Railroad, Slavery, Civil War, there so many films and documentaries you can access by turning on the TV and finding whatever channel or Netflix.

As far as exhibits go, slave shackles and slave living quarters don't do anything for me. King Tut, Ancient Rome, Military, Space and Air that kind of stuff you want to see up close. If the Freedom Center fancies themselves as an educational service provider, I would rather stay home and
watch a good documentary.

Oh yeah, they need to self fund, not help from the taxpayers.

It is fascinating stuff related to our nations history, and a lot of times I would rather go somewhere and see things in person rather then watch them on my LCD.

But the Freedom Center would be better served as a 6 month or year long exhibit at Union Terminal rather then having their own multi-million dollar building located on prime riverfront real estate where something else (like say...a casino?) could be located and actually turn a profit on the high investment into the location.

I totally agree.

Its not like this isn't history worthy of preservation and our little corner of SW OH is a huge piece of that history.

By all means preserve the history. People want to experience it, people will pay to experience it, I get that.

But we have a relatively short expanse of riverfront and that real estate HAS to be put to its highest economically utility (as determined by the free market).

PBS isn't doing that, GAB isn't doing that and the Freedom Center is a drain on our economy. Which for max value real estate is preposterous.

We have given away the majority of our riverfront to, limited economic use and limited profit enterprises at best and public fund operating expense sucking enterprise at worst.

I agree with you, but like I mentioned before, there are symbolic and historic reasons for putting such a museum on the riverfront. Of the three you mentioned, the Freedom Center has by far the smallest footprint.

GAPB brings 2 million visitors a year, and arguably has a place toward sparking development - though I should point out that I was an active participant in the Broadway Commons campaign.

Paul Brown Stadium is monumental waste of space.

(12-20-2011 03:33 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 01:36 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 08:49 AM)EcFlay Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 04:12 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I guess I'm the only one who was fascinated by the history the Freedom Center had to offer when I visited. Thought it was really cool. I thought the tourguides did a nice job as well. I think it would be a shame to lose something so unique. I hope they find a business model that works for them.

(12-19-2011 05:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  I am not sure what kind of exhibits they have there, but related to the Undergound Railroad, Slavery, Civil War, there so many films and documentaries you can access by turning on the TV and finding whatever channel or Netflix.

As far as exhibits go, slave shackles and slave living quarters don't do anything for me. King Tut, Ancient Rome, Military, Space and Air that kind of stuff you want to see up close. If the Freedom Center fancies themselves as an educational service provider, I would rather stay home and
watch a good documentary.

Oh yeah, they need to self fund, not help from the taxpayers.

It is fascinating stuff related to our nations history, and a lot of times I would rather go somewhere and see things in person rather then watch them on my LCD.

But the Freedom Center would be better served as a 6 month or year long exhibit at Union Terminal rather then having their own multi-million dollar building located on prime riverfront real estate where something else (like say...a casino?) could be located and actually turn a profit on the high investment into the location.

I totally agree.

Its not like this isn't history worthy of preservation and our little corner of SW OH is a huge piece of that history.

By all means preserve the history. People want to experience it, people will pay to experience it, I get that.

But we have a relatively short expanse of riverfront and that real estate HAS to be put to its highest economically utility (as determined by the free market).

PBS isn't doing that, GAB isn't doing that and the Freedom Center is a drain on our economy. Which for max value real estate is preposterous.

We have given away the majority of our riverfront to, limited economic use and limited profit enterprises at best and public fund operating expense sucking enterprise at worst.

I agree with you, but like I mentioned before, there are symbolic and historic reasons for putting such a museum on the riverfront. Of the three you mentioned, the Freedom Center has by far the smallest footprint.

GAPB brings 2 million visitors a year, and arguably has a place toward sparking development - though I should point out that I was an active participant in the Broadway Commons campaign.

Paul Brown Stadium is monumental waste of space.

You do realize that there were hundreds of underground railroad landmarks east and west of downtown Cincinnati don't you? The freedom center could have been located at any one of them and it wouldn't have taken up prime real estate.

(12-20-2011 07:45 PM)converrl Wrote:  You do realize that there were hundreds of underground railroad landmarks east and west of downtown Cincinnati don't you? The freedom center could have been located at any one of them and it wouldn't have taken up prime real estate.

What do you mean?! Everything related to the underground railroad happened right on the Ohio side of the Ohio River. Specifically in between where the Brent Spence and Roebling Bridge are today, so the Freedom Center had to be located there. No where else could it be! /sarcasm

If you want to see something really related to the underground railroad, venture up to Springboro where they have a walking tour of buildings that were actually used to hide slaves. There's secret rooms and tunnels and everything. Pretty neat.

(12-20-2011 07:45 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:33 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 01:36 PM)Eastside_J Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 08:49 AM)EcFlay Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 04:12 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I guess I'm the only one who was fascinated by the history the Freedom Center had to offer when I visited. Thought it was really cool. I thought the tourguides did a nice job as well. I think it would be a shame to lose something so unique. I hope they find a business model that works for them.

(12-19-2011 05:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  I am not sure what kind of exhibits they have there, but related to the Undergound Railroad, Slavery, Civil War, there so many films and documentaries you can access by turning on the TV and finding whatever channel or Netflix.

As far as exhibits go, slave shackles and slave living quarters don't do anything for me. King Tut, Ancient Rome, Military, Space and Air that kind of stuff you want to see up close. If the Freedom Center fancies themselves as an educational service provider, I would rather stay home and
watch a good documentary.

Oh yeah, they need to self fund, not help from the taxpayers.

It is fascinating stuff related to our nations history, and a lot of times I would rather go somewhere and see things in person rather then watch them on my LCD.

But the Freedom Center would be better served as a 6 month or year long exhibit at Union Terminal rather then having their own multi-million dollar building located on prime riverfront real estate where something else (like say...a casino?) could be located and actually turn a profit on the high investment into the location.

I totally agree.

Its not like this isn't history worthy of preservation and our little corner of SW OH is a huge piece of that history.

By all means preserve the history. People want to experience it, people will pay to experience it, I get that.

But we have a relatively short expanse of riverfront and that real estate HAS to be put to its highest economically utility (as determined by the free market).

PBS isn't doing that, GAB isn't doing that and the Freedom Center is a drain on our economy. Which for max value real estate is preposterous.

We have given away the majority of our riverfront to, limited economic use and limited profit enterprises at best and public fund operating expense sucking enterprise at worst.

I agree with you, but like I mentioned before, there are symbolic and historic reasons for putting such a museum on the riverfront. Of the three you mentioned, the Freedom Center has by far the smallest footprint.

GAPB brings 2 million visitors a year, and arguably has a place toward sparking development - though I should point out that I was an active participant in the Broadway Commons campaign.

Paul Brown Stadium is monumental waste of space.

You do realize that there were hundreds of underground railroad landmarks east and west of downtown Cincinnati don't you? The freedom center could have been located at any one of them and it wouldn't have taken up prime real estate.

The region is littered with landmarks related to the underground railroad. I think the point is putting it in this prominent spot is an indicator of the important role this region played.

I'm just saying that of the three structures mentioned, only the Freedom Center has some historical relevance for being where it is, and it has the smallest footprint.

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 01:28 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  I'd like to see those attendance numbers adjusted after removing mandatory student trips (busloads)

Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

(12-21-2011 12:50 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  I'm just saying that of the three structures mentioned, only the Freedom Center has some historical relevance for being where it is, and it has the smallest footprint.

Smallest physical footprint...much larger economic footprint--to illustrate:

I could own a small parcel of land in the middle of a site proposed for a hospital, office building, business, or other structure designed to spur economic development in a particular region--by refusing to sell that small parcel of land, I could hold up massive economic development for decades--in fact, the new parking garage built onto Good Sam off of Clifton Avenue several years ago is a perfect example of this principal--there were a couple of residents who would not sell their land to the hospital, and, as a result, the value of the land skyrocketed....to the point that it made economic sense to finally sell that tiny parcel of land.

Now Good Sam has ample on-site parking and can accommodate a much larger patient pool (especially for the outpatient procedures). The net effect on their bottom line has been quite positive.

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 01:28 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  I'd like to see those attendance numbers adjusted after removing mandatory student trips (busloads)

Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

(12-21-2011 09:44 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 01:28 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  I'd like to see those attendance numbers adjusted after removing mandatory student trips (busloads)

Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

I can answer that for you. Converrl doesn't think at all.

Merry Christmas!

(12-22-2011 03:41 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 09:44 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 01:28 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  I'd like to see those attendance numbers adjusted after removing mandatory student trips (busloads)

Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

I can answer that for you. Converrl doesn't think at all.

Merry Christmas!

You have to admit, he has come up with a cute short form for your username.


And a Merry Christmas to you. Have a Happy New Year also.

(12-22-2011 03:41 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 09:44 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-19-2011 01:28 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  I'd like to see those attendance numbers adjusted after removing mandatory student trips (busloads)

Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

I can answer that for you. Converrl doesn't think at all.

Merry Christmas!

I actually got to thinking about calling the riverfront "prime real estate" while I was trying to fall asleep last night.

Putting stadiums, retail, office, housing on the riverfront begins to fulfill the City Master Plan...of 1945.

Yeah, that's right.

That real estate is so PRIME that over 60 years later the plan implementation is STILL not complete.

The riverfront is a flood plain. I'm generally against building in flood plains and don't consider such prime real estate.

At one time the riverfront had a neighborhood, but it was deemed so unworthy that it - The Bottoms - was demolished and replaced with an arena and a stadium and massive parking lots beginning in the late 60's.

This prime real estate remained mostly parking lots for another 30 years.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's not so prime.

It should have been converted into mostly non-revenue producing park land.

(12-22-2011 03:56 PM)OneUChoopsfan Wrote:  

(12-22-2011 03:41 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 09:44 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

I can answer that for you. Converrl doesn't think at all.

Merry Christmas!

You have to admit, he has come up with a cute short form for your username.


And a Merry Christmas to you. Have a Happy New Year also.

I've been focused on gangsta players, conference realignment, and bowl games, so I haven't been reading his posts. He bores me and I skip right over.

He's so boring, his right hand falls alseep during sex.

D'oh.

(12-22-2011 04:00 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-22-2011 03:41 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 09:44 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  

(12-20-2011 03:24 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Why? Its mission is educational. My kid went and it seemed like he was engaged and learned something from it.

My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

I can answer that for you. Converrl doesn't think at all.

Merry Christmas!

I actually got to thinking about calling the riverfront "prime real estate" while I was trying to fall asleep last night.

Putting stadiums, retail, office, housing on the riverfront begins to fulfill the City Master Plan...of 1945.

Yeah, that's right.

That real estate is so PRIME that over 60 years later the plan implementation is STILL not complete.

The riverfront is a flood plain. I'm generally against building in flood plains and don't consider such prime real estate.

At one time the riverfront had a neighborhood, but it was deemed so unworthy that it - The Bottoms - was demolished and replaced with an arena and a stadium and massive parking lots beginning in the late 60's.

This prime real estate remained mostly parking lots for another 30 years.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's not so prime.

It should have been converted into mostly non-revenue producing park land.

Funny how the KY side of the river treats their property in just the opposite fashion...and they have profited from that vision in spades.

Could it be that the plans to develop the riverfront weren't held up due to it's value as real estate, but rather, due to the inherent political squabbling that is city council?

Nah...I guess not...

That also explains the rush to finally develop the property now, and at a rapid pace...since the location is so poor(?)

Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me...

(12-22-2011 05:17 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-22-2011 04:00 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-22-2011 03:41 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 09:44 PM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-21-2011 01:09 PM)Crewdogz Wrote:  My children have been also, they've also been to the Harrisburg, PA Civil War museum which is almost as good in educational displays and content as the Freedom Center. For the school bus trips my children made they were not charged an admission at all. My oldest and I also got to tour the museum at no charge after the FREE DARFUR! rally on fountain square (where afterwards we all walked in solidarity to the museum).

My point in wanting the attendance numbers posted without the mandatory school bus trips is quite simple. I believe it will give a more accurate representation of the commercial viability of the museum; wouldn't you agree?

I can answer that for you--SUC doesn't think the economic benefit to the region outweighs the symbolism of placing the Freedom Center in the middle of prime riverfront real estate.

This....is not a surprise....

I can answer that for you. Converrl doesn't think at all.

Merry Christmas!

I actually got to thinking about calling the riverfront "prime real estate" while I was trying to fall asleep last night.

Putting stadiums, retail, office, housing on the riverfront begins to fulfill the City Master Plan...of 1945.

Yeah, that's right.

That real estate is so PRIME that over 60 years later the plan implementation is STILL not complete.

The riverfront is a flood plain. I'm generally against building in flood plains and don't consider such prime real estate.

At one time the riverfront had a neighborhood, but it was deemed so unworthy that it - The Bottoms - was demolished and replaced with an arena and a stadium and massive parking lots beginning in the late 60's.

This prime real estate remained mostly parking lots for another 30 years.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's not so prime.

It should have been converted into mostly non-revenue producing park land.

Funny how the KY side of the river treats their property in just the opposite fashion...and they have profited from that vision in spades.

Could it be that the plans to develop the riverfront weren't held up due to it's value as real estate, but rather, due to the inherent political squabbling that is city council?

Nah...I guess not...

That also explains the rush to finally develop the property now, and at a rapid pace...since the location is so poor(?)

Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me...

Is the NKY riverfront really doing all that well? Stobart's. Tropicana. IMAX. Howl at the Moon. Omnicare. Waterfront. Huge chunks of The Levee have remained vacant from the very beginning and I've noticed on weeknights street level bars are closed.

The Cincinnati riverfront was not held up for 60 years because of political squabbling. The latest effort - The Banks - was held up because it's a massive project involving multiple property owners, a couple billion dollars involving a variety of financing, a diversity of venues ijncluding a park, stadiums, commercial, retail, residential, massive parking garages, the overhaul of a freeway - that all need to be protected and/or lifted out of a flood plain.

(12-23-2011 10:10 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Is the NKY riverfront really doing all that well? Stobart's. Tropicana. IMAX. Howl at the Moon. Omnicare. Waterfront. Huge chunks of The Levee have remained vacant from the very beginning and I've noticed on weeknights street level bars are closed.

You are throwing stones at the economy et al with those examples, not the riverfront per se. Omnicare was lured from Newport to Cincinnati with massive incentives (something you oppose, incidentally). Jeff Ruby has had to close several ventures at venues other than the Newport Riverfront (Bootsy's and the River City Casino are just 2 examples) that's the restaurant business--it's quite fickle.

Howl at the Moon is another example--they've shrunk almost 2-fold over the last half decade--the closest Howl at the Moon is in Louisville (there are no Ohio locations)...oddly enough, the Louisville location is just a few blocks from....the Ohio River.

Interestingly, Don Pablo's shrank from a half-dozen locations locally, to only 2...one of those being the Newport Riverfront. On the Cincinnati side, the Montgomery Inn Boathouse has done good business for many years--in no small part due to their riverfront location.

As far as multiplex IMAX theaters...they closed all over the country..not just on the Levee (google "IMAX to close" and you'll get over 500 hits). That's just a flawed business model--in fact, 3-D films are suffering the same fate--fewer moviegoers are willing to fork over the extra $$ to see something in 3D that they prefer to see at home, or in 2D format.

Newport on the Levee is doing just fine as a riverfront retail outlet, and riverboat row has been viable for years. The Levee has essentially full occupancy, which is difficult to maintain in this economic climate.

Newport has made a far greater economic impact for their municipality than the Cincinnati riverfront has for our city, that's for certain.

The question you've failed to answer in all of this is why so many developers are chomping at the bit to develop the Cincinnati Riverfront between the GAPB and PBS if it's such a rotten location? The answer must be...you are wrong in your assumption!

That area would grow at an even greater rate if the Freedom Center were folded into the Museum Center---you'd free up that real estate for more development and potential economic impact.

My point with all of this is that you seem to value symbolism over utility and economic feasibility--otherwise you wouldn't be defending the failed model of the Freedom Center so vigorously...

(12-23-2011 11:51 AM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-23-2011 10:10 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Is the NKY riverfront really doing all that well? Stobart's. Tropicana. IMAX. Howl at the Moon. Omnicare. Waterfront. Huge chunks of The Levee have remained vacant from the very beginning and I've noticed on weeknights street level bars are closed.

You are throwing stones at the economy et al with those examples, not the riverfront per se. Omnicare was lured from Newport to Cincinnati with massive incentives (something you oppose, incidentally). Jeff Ruby has had to close several ventures at venues other than the Newport Riverfront (Bootsy's and the River City Casino are just 2 examples) that's the restaurant business--it's quite fickle.

Howl at the Moon is another example--they've shrunk almost 2-fold over the last half decade--the closest Howl at the Moon is in Louisville (there are no Ohio locations)...oddly enough, the Louisville location is just a few blocks from....the Ohio River.

Interestingly, Don Pablo's shrank from a half-dozen locations locally, to only 2...one of those being the Newport Riverfront. On the Cincinnati side, the Montgomery Inn Boathouse has done good business for many years--in no small part due to their riverfront location.

As far as multiplex IMAX theaters...they closed all over the country..not just on the Levee (google "IMAX to close" and you'll get over 500 hits). That's just a flawed business model--in fact, 3-D films are suffering the same fate--fewer moviegoers are willing to fork over the extra $$ to see something in 3D that they prefer to see at home, or in 2D format.

Newport on the Levee is doing just fine as a riverfront retail outlet, and riverboat row has been viable for years. The Levee has essentially full occupancy, which is difficult to maintain in this economic climate.

Newport has made a far greater economic impact for their municipality than the Cincinnati riverfront has for our city, that's for certain.

The question you've failed to answer in all of this is why so many developers are chomping at the bit to develop the Cincinnati Riverfront between the GAPB and PBS if it's such a rotten location? The answer must be...you are wrong in your assumption!

That area would grow at an even greater rate if the Freedom Center were folded into the Museum Center---you'd free up that real estate for more development and potential economic impact.

My point with all of this is that you seem to value symbolism over utility and economic feasibility--otherwise you wouldn't be defending the failed model of the Freedom Center so vigorously...

Newport on the Levee is full? Really? Really. It has never been full. That's why Steiner sold it. It is doing fine as a retail outlet? Seriously. You think that? You should have seen the list of tenants who signed letters of intent to open that place vs. the businesses that actually occupied it. The lack of weekday foot traffic in that facility has been widely documented.

Covington Landing no longer exists.

The Covington office buildings will soon be very empty.

So just to make it clear to everyone, when it's Covington or Newport that has a problem, it's the economy; when it's Cincinnati it's politics. Right.

As far as the Banks goes, the residential portion has been leasing rather quickly; the retail leasing is doing ok, but there have been bumps in the road. Hotel and office has been nonexistent, which explains the empty chunk facing 3rd street. You can blame that on the economy.

And finally, in your effort to argue for argument's sake, you speak out of both sides of your mouth by unfavorably comparing Cincinnati to Newport, then boast how the Cincy riverfront is prime real estate and business is "chomping at the bit" to locate there.

Which is it.

I'm done discussing this because it always ends up being bizarre with you.

I'm sure NAMBLA has something to do with this and shortly you'll be sure to tell us how.

Ok--I give up...

You've convinced me.

No successful businesses, office buildings or facilities have ever existed on any riverfront property anywhere in the United States for any significant period of time. These areas should strictly be used as space for museum centers or mud.

You need to send that as an all-points bulletin to the long list of private concerns who have been building on riverfront property, not just in Cincinnati, Newport, and Covington, but all across the United States--because they are DOOMING themselves by investing in such a venture.

I will look for your comments in the Wall Street Journal in the near future!

We are all luckier for your insight.

(12-23-2011 01:21 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(12-23-2011 11:51 AM)converrl Wrote:  

(12-23-2011 10:10 AM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Is the NKY riverfront really doing all that well? Stobart's. Tropicana. IMAX. Howl at the Moon. Omnicare. Waterfront. Huge chunks of The Levee have remained vacant from the very beginning and I've noticed on weeknights street level bars are closed.

You are throwing stones at the economy et al with those examples, not the riverfront per se. Omnicare was lured from Newport to Cincinnati with massive incentives (something you oppose, incidentally). Jeff Ruby has had to close several ventures at venues other than the Newport Riverfront (Bootsy's and the River City Casino are just 2 examples) that's the restaurant business--it's quite fickle.

Howl at the Moon is another example--they've shrunk almost 2-fold over the last half decade--the closest Howl at the Moon is in Louisville (there are no Ohio locations)...oddly enough, the Louisville location is just a few blocks from....the Ohio River.

Interestingly, Don Pablo's shrank from a half-dozen locations locally, to only 2...one of those being the Newport Riverfront. On the Cincinnati side, the Montgomery Inn Boathouse has done good business for many years--in no small part due to their riverfront location.

As far as multiplex IMAX theaters...they closed all over the country..not just on the Levee (google "IMAX to close" and you'll get over 500 hits). That's just a flawed business model--in fact, 3-D films are suffering the same fate--fewer moviegoers are willing to fork over the extra $$ to see something in 3D that they prefer to see at home, or in 2D format.

Newport on the Levee is doing just fine as a riverfront retail outlet, and riverboat row has been viable for years. The Levee has essentially full occupancy, which is difficult to maintain in this economic climate.

Newport has made a far greater economic impact for their municipality than the Cincinnati riverfront has for our city, that's for certain.

The question you've failed to answer in all of this is why so many developers are chomping at the bit to develop the Cincinnati Riverfront between the GAPB and PBS if it's such a rotten location? The answer must be...you are wrong in your assumption!

That area would grow at an even greater rate if the Freedom Center were folded into the Museum Center---you'd free up that real estate for more development and potential economic impact.

My point with all of this is that you seem to value symbolism over utility and economic feasibility--otherwise you wouldn't be defending the failed model of the Freedom Center so vigorously...

Newport on the Levee is full? Really? Really. It has never been full. That's why Steiner sold it. It is doing fine as a retail outlet? Seriously. You think that? You should have seen the list of tenants who signed letters of intent to open that place vs. the businesses that actually occupied it. The lack of weekday foot traffic in that facility has been widely documented.

Covington Landing no longer exists.

The Covington office buildings will soon be very empty.

So just to make it clear to everyone, when it's Covington or Newport that has a problem, it's the economy; when it's Cincinnati it's politics. Right.

As far as the Banks goes, the residential portion has been leasing rather quickly; the retail leasing is doing ok, but there have been bumps in the road. Hotel and office has been nonexistent, which explains the empty chunk facing 3rd street. You can blame that on the economy.

And finally, in your effort to argue for argument's sake, you speak out of both sides of your mouth by unfavorably comparing Cincinnati to Newport, then boast how the Cincy riverfront is prime real estate and business is "chomping at the bit" to locate there.

Which is it.

I'm done discussing this because it always ends up being bizarre with you.

I'm sure NAMBLA has something to do with this and shortly you'll be sure to tell us how.

Related to the companies OmniCare and Nielsen that are moving out of River Center office buildings..........they can do that because of large chunks of contiguous office space available in Downtown Cincy. This is due to the new 800,000 RSF Great American skyscraper. Great American exited space in 5 different downtown office buildings when they moved.
Nothing wrong with those covington office buildings, River Center and Madison Place.
You always get better tax incentives when going to another state which is how OmniCare and Nielsen ended up in Kentucky in the first place.