(02-01-2018 12:09 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  But Indiana basketball is a much bigger deal in Indianapolis than Missouri in STL and there has been no NBA team in St. Louis for over half a century. Thus, Saint Louis could more easily carve a long term niche than Butler. Butler is not the first unheralded private school to play for a national title. Other than Big East schools, most have withered away into irrelevance or dropped out of D-I. One such example is...La Salle.

There is a geographic aspect to this too. Indianapolis is half way between Chicago (DePaul) and Cincinnati (Xavier). Indiana is known as one of the top basketball states in the country. A Midwest basketball conference wants a presence in Indiana like a southern football conference needs a presence in Florida.

It was completely logical that Butler was taken before St. Louis. St. Louis hasn't made a Sweet 16 since 1957 while Butler has been to 5 of them since 2008.

The objection to Dayton by the Big East is they are too close to Xavier who is in the bigger market. There is only room for 1 Ohio school in the Big East.

Both Dayton and St. Louis though would be a nice additions to the AAC to add some depth and put more distance between the AAC and the A10/MVC. BE doesn't have a particular need for them though as one of the very elite conferences right now.

(02-01-2018 01:13 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 12:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  You answered your own question, Dayton is a better fit. They have always filled their arena win or lose, actually are Catholic and are basically the only game in town. SLU may be a typical doormat but they are the highest level of basketball in St. Louis and also have a sizeable arena, plus a larger, less saturated market than Butler.

Here I think you've at least given a concrete reason as to why Butler shouldn't be in the Big East....because they aren't a catholic university.

But I don't think its too important. It not like its 1930 where Northeast protestants were the elites in every sector of the economy. Today they are in the minority of the elite sectors of the economy. Anti-catholic bias hasn't existed in elite sectors in decades. In my estimation catholics are probably the largest representative of the elite sector since they have a strong population base in the coastal elite cities.

Nothing to do with that. I'm happy that Butler rose from underdog status to reach one of college basketball's top conferences. But the Big East may be saddled with deadweight one day. Look at DePaul. They never played for an NCAA title but were better than Butler for a longer stretch of time. They look like they belong in the Valley or Horizon these days. Or even C-USA.

And yes, someone has to be a doormat in these conferences but DePaul hasn't been very good for a full quarter century, with just two Tournament bids despite playing in a very good multi-bid conference most of that time.

The ideal is a revolving doormat, where no one team predominantly or consistently resides at or in the bottom of any conference. That demonstrates individual program growth and ebb and flow. The A10 is showing that it's no longer happening there, with Fordham, George Mason, and Duquesne typically found there (and SLU most years, with the exception of Majerus' time at the program), and La Salle perhaps sensing they could be a regular, too.

As for Butler...you have to go back to the 80's to find them with a coach who couldn't find the NCAA tournament. They've had no problems finding it after Joe Sexson, around any number of programs, high mid-majors to majors. MCC, Horizon, A10, Big East...doesn't matter. Great location for basketball interest and fandom, and a program committed, for the last 20+ years at least, to competitive success.

I'd look to the original C7 bloc for that dead weight, since DePaul is obvious, and the jury's out on St. John's. But even beyond the lack of current basketball success, who is struggling to fill seats institutionally? Who's enrollment profile is taking a hit? That's where you look first. Then, it's to schools who just don't give a rip about sports. "Can't keep up" and "just don't care."

(02-01-2018 02:14 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 01:13 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 12:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  You answered your own question, Dayton is a better fit. They have always filled their arena win or lose, actually are Catholic and are basically the only game in town. SLU may be a typical doormat but they are the highest level of basketball in St. Louis and also have a sizeable arena, plus a larger, less saturated market than Butler.

Here I think you've at least given a concrete reason as to why Butler shouldn't be in the Big East....because they aren't a catholic university.

But I don't think its too important. It not like its 1930 where Northeast protestants were the elites in every sector of the economy. Today they are in the minority of the elite sectors of the economy. Anti-catholic bias hasn't existed in elite sectors in decades. In my estimation catholics are probably the largest representative of the elite sector since they have a strong population base in the coastal elite cities.

Nothing to do with that. I'm happy that Butler rose from underdog status to reach one of college basketball's top conferences. But the Big East may be saddled with deadweight one day. Look at DePaul. They never played for an NCAA title but were better than Butler for a longer stretch of time. They look like they belong in the Valley or Horizon these days. Or even C-USA.

And yes, someone has to be a doormat in these conferences but DePaul hasn't been very good for a full quarter century, with just two Tournament bids despite playing in a very good multi-bid conference most of that time.

The thing is that Butler is still an institutional fit - a private university in a large market (Indianapolis) that geographically aligns with the Big East overall. Even if you stripped away all of Butler's on-the-court achievements, it is still in institutional alignment with the rest of the Big East schools and that's a factor that will never change. So are schools like DePaul and St. John's, albeit they're located in even larger markets. Now, if the Big East had added, say, VCU or Wichita State, which are schools that have absolutely nothing in common with the rest of the Big East outside of the fact that they all have basketball teams, then you could argue that it was a short-sighted move based on recent success. However, Butler fits into the Big East whether they're good on the court or not (which is ultimately what you want out of any conference realignment move).

(02-01-2018 10:33 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 02:14 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 01:13 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 12:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  You answered your own question, Dayton is a better fit. They have always filled their arena win or lose, actually are Catholic and are basically the only game in town. SLU may be a typical doormat but they are the highest level of basketball in St. Louis and also have a sizeable arena, plus a larger, less saturated market than Butler.

Here I think you've at least given a concrete reason as to why Butler shouldn't be in the Big East....because they aren't a catholic university.

But I don't think its too important. It not like its 1930 where Northeast protestants were the elites in every sector of the economy. Today they are in the minority of the elite sectors of the economy. Anti-catholic bias hasn't existed in elite sectors in decades. In my estimation catholics are probably the largest representative of the elite sector since they have a strong population base in the coastal elite cities.

Nothing to do with that. I'm happy that Butler rose from underdog status to reach one of college basketball's top conferences. But the Big East may be saddled with deadweight one day. Look at DePaul. They never played for an NCAA title but were better than Butler for a longer stretch of time. They look like they belong in the Valley or Horizon these days. Or even C-USA.

And yes, someone has to be a doormat in these conferences but DePaul hasn't been very good for a full quarter century, with just two Tournament bids despite playing in a very good multi-bid conference most of that time.

The thing is that Butler is still an institutional fit - a private university in a large market (Indianapolis) that geographically aligns with the Big East overall. Even if you stripped away all of Butler's on-the-court achievements, it is still in institutional alignment with the rest of the Big East schools and that's a factor that will never change. So are schools like DePaul and St. John's, albeit they're located in even larger markets. Now, if the Big East had added, say, VCU or Wichita State, which are schools that have absolutely nothing in common with the rest of the Big East outside of the fact that they all have basketball teams, then you could argue that it was a short-sighted move based on recent success. However, Butler fits into the Big East whether they're good on the court or not (which is ultimately what you want out of any conference realignment move).

DePaul and St John’s are in large markets....but so is Chicago st and San Jose St. The only difference between the 4 is that 2 had great periods in the past. DePaul, St Johns, Chicago st and San Jose st are all 4 horrible basketball teams with horrible attendance in huge markets.

(02-01-2018 11:36 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 10:33 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 02:14 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 01:13 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 12:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  You answered your own question, Dayton is a better fit. They have always filled their arena win or lose, actually are Catholic and are basically the only game in town. SLU may be a typical doormat but they are the highest level of basketball in St. Louis and also have a sizeable arena, plus a larger, less saturated market than Butler.

Here I think you've at least given a concrete reason as to why Butler shouldn't be in the Big East....because they aren't a catholic university.

But I don't think its too important. It not like its 1930 where Northeast protestants were the elites in every sector of the economy. Today they are in the minority of the elite sectors of the economy. Anti-catholic bias hasn't existed in elite sectors in decades. In my estimation catholics are probably the largest representative of the elite sector since they have a strong population base in the coastal elite cities.

Nothing to do with that. I'm happy that Butler rose from underdog status to reach one of college basketball's top conferences. But the Big East may be saddled with deadweight one day. Look at DePaul. They never played for an NCAA title but were better than Butler for a longer stretch of time. They look like they belong in the Valley or Horizon these days. Or even C-USA.

And yes, someone has to be a doormat in these conferences but DePaul hasn't been very good for a full quarter century, with just two Tournament bids despite playing in a very good multi-bid conference most of that time.

The thing is that Butler is still an institutional fit - a private university in a large market (Indianapolis) that geographically aligns with the Big East overall. Even if you stripped away all of Butler's on-the-court achievements, it is still in institutional alignment with the rest of the Big East schools and that's a factor that will never change. So are schools like DePaul and St. John's, albeit they're located in even larger markets. Now, if the Big East had added, say, VCU or Wichita State, which are schools that have absolutely nothing in common with the rest of the Big East outside of the fact that they all have basketball teams, then you could argue that it was a short-sighted move based on recent success. However, Butler fits into the Big East whether they're good on the court or not (which is ultimately what you want out of any conference realignment move).

DePaul and St John’s are in large markets....but so is Chicago st and San Jose St. The only difference between the 4 is that 2 had great periods in the past. DePaul, St Johns, Chicago st and San Jose st are all 4 horrible basketball teams with horrible attendance in huge markets.

That all may be true, but the entire point is that DePaul and St. John's are completely institutionally aligned with the rest of the Big East: large private universities in large markets with similar student demographics with the league overall. Butler fits into that category, too. Chicago State and San Jose State aren't institutional fits at all and that would be the case even if they had a ton of on-the-court success. When you have poaching power (which is the case with the Big East with respect to non-FBS Division I schools), then you have the ability to choose schools on factors far beyond simply on-the-court metrics.

Yeah, I don't mean to sound like I'm hating on Butler but like I said, I don't think it was a good long term add. College basketball is littered with private schools like that go on a run then within a decade or two become irrelevant. The saving grace for most of the current Big East was that they were good as the Big East and college basketball became more and more mainstream. That and their locations in places mad about college basketball. And even with that, a school like St. John's is done other than being in the Big East.

If not for being in a BCS conference as that took priority in the college sports landscape, the current Big East would be a glorified Atlantic 10 and you can almost argue it is.

(02-01-2018 10:33 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 02:14 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 01:13 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 12:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  You answered your own question, Dayton is a better fit. They have always filled their arena win or lose, actually are Catholic and are basically the only game in town. SLU may be a typical doormat but they are the highest level of basketball in St. Louis and also have a sizeable arena, plus a larger, less saturated market than Butler.

Here I think you've at least given a concrete reason as to why Butler shouldn't be in the Big East....because they aren't a catholic university.

But I don't think its too important. It not like its 1930 where Northeast protestants were the elites in every sector of the economy. Today they are in the minority of the elite sectors of the economy. Anti-catholic bias hasn't existed in elite sectors in decades. In my estimation catholics are probably the largest representative of the elite sector since they have a strong population base in the coastal elite cities.

Nothing to do with that. I'm happy that Butler rose from underdog status to reach one of college basketball's top conferences. But the Big East may be saddled with deadweight one day. Look at DePaul. They never played for an NCAA title but were better than Butler for a longer stretch of time. They look like they belong in the Valley or Horizon these days. Or even C-USA.

And yes, someone has to be a doormat in these conferences but DePaul hasn't been very good for a full quarter century, with just two Tournament bids despite playing in a very good multi-bid conference most of that time.

The thing is that Butler is still an institutional fit - a private university in a large market (Indianapolis) that geographically aligns with the Big East overall. Even if you stripped away all of Butler's on-the-court achievements, it is still in institutional alignment with the rest of the Big East schools and that's a factor that will never change. So are schools like DePaul and St. John's, albeit they're located in even larger markets. Now, if the Big East had added, say, VCU or Wichita State, which are schools that have absolutely nothing in common with the rest of the Big East outside of the fact that they all have basketball teams, then you could argue that it was a short-sighted move based on recent success. However, Butler fits into the Big East whether they're good on the court or not (which is ultimately what you want out of any conference realignment move).

Doesn't this mean taking Louisville over UConn was a bad realignment move? Not that the ACC has ever had the curremt Big East's level of institutional similarity but Louisville (large urban public) isn't like any ACC school. I guess if you squint it's a "state's second public school" like Clemson and FSU and NCSU...

(02-01-2018 01:22 PM)justinslot Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 10:33 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 02:14 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-01-2018 01:13 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(01-31-2018 12:09 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  You answered your own question, Dayton is a better fit. They have always filled their arena win or lose, actually are Catholic and are basically the only game in town. SLU may be a typical doormat but they are the highest level of basketball in St. Louis and also have a sizeable arena, plus a larger, less saturated market than Butler.

Here I think you've at least given a concrete reason as to why Butler shouldn't be in the Big East....because they aren't a catholic university.

But I don't think its too important. It not like its 1930 where Northeast protestants were the elites in every sector of the economy. Today they are in the minority of the elite sectors of the economy. Anti-catholic bias hasn't existed in elite sectors in decades. In my estimation catholics are probably the largest representative of the elite sector since they have a strong population base in the coastal elite cities.

Nothing to do with that. I'm happy that Butler rose from underdog status to reach one of college basketball's top conferences. But the Big East may be saddled with deadweight one day. Look at DePaul. They never played for an NCAA title but were better than Butler for a longer stretch of time. They look like they belong in the Valley or Horizon these days. Or even C-USA.

And yes, someone has to be a doormat in these conferences but DePaul hasn't been very good for a full quarter century, with just two Tournament bids despite playing in a very good multi-bid conference most of that time.

The thing is that Butler is still an institutional fit - a private university in a large market (Indianapolis) that geographically aligns with the Big East overall. Even if you stripped away all of Butler's on-the-court achievements, it is still in institutional alignment with the rest of the Big East schools and that's a factor that will never change. So are schools like DePaul and St. John's, albeit they're located in even larger markets. Now, if the Big East had added, say, VCU or Wichita State, which are schools that have absolutely nothing in common with the rest of the Big East outside of the fact that they all have basketball teams, then you could argue that it was a short-sighted move based on recent success. However, Butler fits into the Big East whether they're good on the court or not (which is ultimately what you want out of any conference realignment move).

Doesn't this mean taking Louisville over UConn was a bad realignment move? Not that the ACC has ever had the curremt Big East's level of institutional similarity but Louisville (large urban public) isn't like any ACC school. I guess if you squint it's a "state's second public school" like Clemson and FSU and NCSU...

Although their academics are different, Louisville is like one ACC school: Georgia Tech. Georgia Tech is also a large, urban public. Georgia Tech is neither the flagship school for the state of Georgia (that honor goes to the University of Georgia), nor is Tech the land grant school for the state of Georgia (that distinction also goes to the University of Georgia). Although their academics do closely mimic that of a private school, Georgia Tech is a public school.

And while not as prestigious as Georgia Tech, Louisville’s best known program is Engineering.

BE has to get St John's, Georgetown & DePaul fixed to remain a power conf
FOX ia already breathing down thier neck
FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

There was improvement in their non-conference schedules. Creighton, DePaul, and G-Town didn't really listen. Marquette's non-conference has recognizable foes, but didn't show up this season (Wisky and VCU).

Some in the Big East figured it out, though, that they don't really have to do much about their non-conference schedule. DePaul has that abysmal NCSOS...with the Big East portion, it brings their entire SOS to 78. Creighton's going to dance, making them and their conference richer. Counterpoint to these are that there are major opponents on the slate, but are weighted way down by SWAC, MEAC, Ivy, ASun, and OVC games.

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  BE has to get St John's, Georgetown & DePaul fixed to remain a power conf
FOX ia already breathing down thier neck
FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

BE is the #1 conference in the land. No issues remaining a power conference.

(02-04-2018 08:43 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  BE has to get St John's, Georgetown & DePaul fixed to remain a power conf
FOX ia already breathing down thier neck
FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

BE is the #1 conference in the land. No issues remaining a power conference.

They're a good basketball conference... That's all.

(02-04-2018 08:43 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  BE has to get St John's, Georgetown & DePaul fixed to remain a power conf
FOX ia already breathing down thier neck
FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

BE is the #1 conference in the land. No issues remaining a power conference.

While the BE is definitely good, they are not #1, IMO. Still, the BE should be a power conference even without being the #1 basketball conference.

(02-04-2018 01:27 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(02-04-2018 08:43 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  BE has to get St John's, Georgetown & DePaul fixed to remain a power conf
FOX ia already breathing down thier neck
FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

BE is the #1 conference in the land. No issues remaining a power conference.

While the BE is definitely good, they are not #1, IMO. Still, the BE should be a power conference even without being the #1 basketball conference.

If the NewBigEast had good solid football in their arsenal yes I'd give them the Power label but they no longer have football so no.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one.

(02-04-2018 08:23 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

There was improvement in their non-conference schedules. Creighton, DePaul, and G-Town didn't really listen. Marquette's non-conference has recognizable foes, but didn't show up this season (Wisky and VCU).

Some in the Big East figured it out, though, that they don't really have to do much about their non-conference schedule. DePaul has that abysmal NCSOS...with the Big East portion, it brings their entire SOS to 78. Creighton's going to dance, making them and their conference richer. Counterpoint to these are that there are major opponents on the slate, but are weighted way down by SWAC, MEAC, Ivy, ASun, and OVC games.

I think you're sort of acknowledging this with your last sentence, but DePaul's non-conference schedule (despite the statistical SOS numbers) don't really point to a lack of scheduling well. In the non-conference schedule, they had games against Notre Dame, Northwestern, Illinois, Michigan State (as part of the PK80 Tournament) and Oregon (also part of PK80). I wouldn't call that poor scheduling at all. It's just that everyone on that list besides Michigan State has a lot worse RPI than someone scheduling games a year or two ago could have reasonably anticipated.

(02-04-2018 08:23 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(02-04-2018 03:10 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  FOX told them to expand or improve non-conf sch, they did niether

There was improvement in their non-conference schedules. Creighton, DePaul, and G-Town didn't really listen. Marquette's non-conference has recognizable foes, but didn't show up this season (Wisky and VCU).

Some in the Big East figured it out, though, that they don't really have to do much about their non-conference schedule. DePaul has that abysmal NCSOS...with the Big East portion, it brings their entire SOS to 78. Creighton's going to dance, making them and their conference richer. Counterpoint to these are that there are major opponents on the slate, but are weighted way down by SWAC, MEAC, Ivy, ASun, and OVC games.

Creighton may be going to the dance, but they're going to get absolutely dinged for a bad OOC schedule. And that could easily cost Creighton getting a 2nd or 3rd game in the tourney- instead of a 4 or 5 seed, they could easily be looking due to the bad OOC schedule a 7 or 8 seed- and a de facto road game in rd 2 of the tourney.

The reason why Providence has a chance of going to the tourney this year is that they did have a pretty decent OOC schedule- projected at 68. If they had Creighton's OOC schedule, they'd be in pretty bleak shape right now.

How's that new for Creighton? Have they ever made the Sweet 16 (rhetorical question)?