The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(01-18-2018 01:19 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 11:31 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 10:55 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  We really sound kind of petty and bitter. Hell, one of our posters said that he would be fine with being #75 every year if VCU was #150. **** that. VCU's ranking is no consolation for us not being as good as we possibly can, and it is just petty nonsense to say you would settle for your team's mediocrity if it meant another team sucked.

Good lord, use some common sense. Beating them and having inferior team < losing to them and having a superior team.

FWIW, 75 is not where I want ODU to be. But, it is a good season (so far) for us based on our last 25+ years. If we finish 75th, I believe it would be only the 6th time since 2002. 05, 06, 07, 10, 11, 15.

FWIW those numbers look a lot better if you trim the JJ numbers (or lack there of) off the end.

Not really. The only real outliers were 13 and 14; Blaines last year and Jones first year (low end) and 10/11 (high end). Every other year is remarkably consistent.

(01-18-2018 01:21 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 12:44 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 10:55 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  We really sound kind of petty and bitter. Hell, one of our posters said that he would be fine with being #75 every year if VCU was #150. **** that. VCU's ranking is no consolation for us not being as good as we possibly can, and it is just petty nonsense to say you would settle for your team's mediocrity if it meant another team sucked.

There were also a lot of people saying Rhoades was a better option than Jones, but it looks like worse results from Rhoades. To me 6...1/2 dozen the other. Rhoades would've been another guy that would've failed to get us to the NCAA Tournament.

Edit: There is obviously still some time for Rhoades to flip the script. Recruiting to VCU shouldn't be very difficult.

I still think Rhoades was a better option than Jones. Will Wade burnt that thing down on his way out the door. His situation is much more akin to what our women's team is dealing with this season.

LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

(01-18-2018 01:37 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:19 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 11:31 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 10:55 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  We really sound kind of petty and bitter. Hell, one of our posters said that he would be fine with being #75 every year if VCU was #150. **** that. VCU's ranking is no consolation for us not being as good as we possibly can, and it is just petty nonsense to say you would settle for your team's mediocrity if it meant another team sucked.

Good lord, use some common sense. Beating them and having inferior team < losing to them and having a superior team.

FWIW, 75 is not where I want ODU to be. But, it is a good season (so far) for us based on our last 25+ years. If we finish 75th, I believe it would be only the 6th time since 2002. 05, 06, 07, 10, 11, 15.

FWIW those numbers look a lot better if you trim the JJ numbers (or lack there of) off the end.

Not really. The only real outliers were 13 and 14; Blaines last year and Jones first year (low end) and 10/11 (high end). Every other year is remarkably consistent.

Since you like numbers... Without JJ we were top 75 42% of the time. Including JJ's years we have been top 75 37% of the time. So in 4 seasons under JJ we dropped 5%. I doubt we make it this year either which will drop it 2% more.

So to recap, BT was top 75 42% of his seasons. JJ has been top 75 25% so far. No matter which way you slice it, the numbers are not comparable.

(01-18-2018 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:21 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 12:44 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 10:55 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  We really sound kind of petty and bitter. Hell, one of our posters said that he would be fine with being #75 every year if VCU was #150. **** that. VCU's ranking is no consolation for us not being as good as we possibly can, and it is just petty nonsense to say you would settle for your team's mediocrity if it meant another team sucked.

There were also a lot of people saying Rhoades was a better option than Jones, but it looks like worse results from Rhoades. To me 6...1/2 dozen the other. Rhoades would've been another guy that would've failed to get us to the NCAA Tournament.

Edit: There is obviously still some time for Rhoades to flip the script. Recruiting to VCU shouldn't be very difficult.

I still think Rhoades was a better option than Jones. Will Wade burnt that thing down on his way out the door. His situation is much more akin to what our women's team is dealing with this season.

LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:21 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 12:44 PM)757ODU Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 10:55 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  We really sound kind of petty and bitter. Hell, one of our posters said that he would be fine with being #75 every year if VCU was #150. **** that. VCU's ranking is no consolation for us not being as good as we possibly can, and it is just petty nonsense to say you would settle for your team's mediocrity if it meant another team sucked.

There were also a lot of people saying Rhoades was a better option than Jones, but it looks like worse results from Rhoades. To me 6...1/2 dozen the other. Rhoades would've been another guy that would've failed to get us to the NCAA Tournament.

Edit: There is obviously still some time for Rhoades to flip the script. Recruiting to VCU shouldn't be very difficult.

I still think Rhoades was a better option than Jones. Will Wade burnt that thing down on his way out the door. His situation is much more akin to what our women's team is dealing with this season.

LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:21 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 12:44 PM)757ODU Wrote:  There were also a lot of people saying Rhoades was a better option than Jones, but it looks like worse results from Rhoades. To me 6...1/2 dozen the other. Rhoades would've been another guy that would've failed to get us to the NCAA Tournament.

Edit: There is obviously still some time for Rhoades to flip the script. Recruiting to VCU shouldn't be very difficult.

I still think Rhoades was a better option than Jones. Will Wade burnt that thing down on his way out the door. His situation is much more akin to what our women's team is dealing with this season.

LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Agreed. VCU beat us once on their home court, and we led that one most of the game.

By that standard, Richmond is better than us since they obviously beat a VCU team that is supposedly better than us. Remember what we did to Richmond?

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:21 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 12:44 PM)757ODU Wrote:  There were also a lot of people saying Rhoades was a better option than Jones, but it looks like worse results from Rhoades. To me 6...1/2 dozen the other. Rhoades would've been another guy that would've failed to get us to the NCAA Tournament.

Edit: There is obviously still some time for Rhoades to flip the script. Recruiting to VCU shouldn't be very difficult.

I still think Rhoades was a better option than Jones. Will Wade burnt that thing down on his way out the door. His situation is much more akin to what our women's team is dealing with this season.

LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Which is exactly why I said the women's situation was more similar. We bottomed out before our new coach came. They bottomed out as their coach was on the way out the door, much like our women.

(01-18-2018 02:36 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:21 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I still think Rhoades was a better option than Jones. Will Wade burnt that thing down on his way out the door. His situation is much more akin to what our women's team is dealing with this season.

LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Agreed. VCU beat us once on their home court, and we led that one most of the game.

By that standard, Richmond is better than us since they obviously beat a VCU team that is supposedly better than us. Remember what we did to Richmond?

What? No. We beat Richmond. The same comparison would say that we are better than Richmond for the same reason VCU is better than us.

(01-18-2018 02:41 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:36 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 01:45 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  LOL, not even close. Certainly left more than our womens BB and Mens BB(post Taylor)

VCU was left with Tillman (Senior and 2nd leading scorer), Williams (Senior Starting PG), Jenkins (soph-top 50 recruit), Crowfield (3 star recruit).

That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Agreed. VCU beat us once on their home court, and we led that one most of the game.

By that standard, Richmond is better than us since they obviously beat a VCU team that is supposedly better than us. Remember what we did to Richmond?

What? No. We beat Richmond. The same comparison would say that we are better than Richmond for the same reason VCU is better than us.

So Richmond is better than VCU and we are better than Richmond and VCU is better than us?


The comparison to the womens isn't a good one. The Womens team is bottoming out now because they had nothing coming back. Similar to Jones first year. Rhoades has talend, maybe not to the level that they had in the past, but enought talent that they should be a top 100 team.

(01-18-2018 02:46 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:41 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:36 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Agreed. VCU beat us once on their home court, and we led that one most of the game.

By that standard, Richmond is better than us since they obviously beat a VCU team that is supposedly better than us. Remember what we did to Richmond?

What? No. We beat Richmond. The same comparison would say that we are better than Richmond for the same reason VCU is better than us.

So Richmond is better than VCU and we are better than Richmond and VCU is better than us?


The comparison to the womens isn't a good one. The Womens team is bottoming out now because they had nothing coming back. Similar to Jones first year. Rhoades has talend, maybe not to the level that they had in the past, but enought talent that they should be a top 100 team.

No. We handled Richmond... We are better than them. VCU handled us they are better than us. No transitive property. No weird stuff. No crazy Giles Basketball Genius Index. Just straight up.

(01-18-2018 02:49 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:46 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:41 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:36 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Agreed. VCU beat us once on their home court, and we led that one most of the game.

By that standard, Richmond is better than us since they obviously beat a VCU team that is supposedly better than us. Remember what we did to Richmond?

What? No. We beat Richmond. The same comparison would say that we are better than Richmond for the same reason VCU is better than us.

So Richmond is better than VCU and we are better than Richmond and VCU is better than us?


The comparison to the womens isn't a good one. The Womens team is bottoming out now because they had nothing coming back. Similar to Jones first year. Rhoades has talend, maybe not to the level that they had in the past, but enought talent that they should be a top 100 team.

No. We handled Richmond... We are better than them. VCU handled us they are better than us. No transitive property. No weird stuff. No crazy Giles Basketball Genius Index. Just straight up.

So we are better than Richmond, VCU is better than us, and Richmond is better than VCU.

In ranking the 3 in order, ow does it go?

And Western Kentucky is better than Purdue!

(01-18-2018 02:46 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:41 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:36 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:31 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  That is all relative. You claim, correctly, that they were left with a lot more than JJ was, but then act like they are as bad as we were in JJ's first year. They are still better than us in this miserable year... and there is the problem with JJ. In his second best year, we are worse than a VCU team that you, and many others, are trashing and laughing at.

Doesn't make sense.

VCU was 48th last year and have moved to 140 this year. We were 276 the year before Jones and moved to 175. They are currently ~35 spots higher this year than we were in Jones first year.

They are not better than us by any relevant statistical measuere except for a 1 game sample size on their home court.

Agreed. VCU beat us once on their home court, and we led that one most of the game.

By that standard, Richmond is better than us since they obviously beat a VCU team that is supposedly better than us. Remember what we did to Richmond?

What? No. We beat Richmond. The same comparison would say that we are better than Richmond for the same reason VCU is better than us.

So Richmond is better than VCU and we are better than Richmond and VCU is better than us?


The comparison to the womens isn't a good one. The Womens team is bottoming out now because they had nothing coming back. Similar to Jones first year. Rhoades has talend, maybe not to the level that they had in the past, but enought talent that they should be a top 100 team.

Jones had plenty coming back comparable to the baseline record you are using to reflect his "turnaround". He also did not lose anybody. He had a team that was at least a .500 team talent wise, and he got a .500 season.

The women, much like VCU, lost recruits, graduated players, and were left with a cupboard that was bear relative to their typical roster, and both are struggling a lot in their first year.

(01-18-2018 02:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  And Western Kentucky is better than Purdue!

Sometimes teams crap the bed a la VCU against Richmond.

We did not crap the bed against VCU. That was just who we are, as we have seen in more recent games. There is far more evidence that VCU is better than us, than there is that we are better than them and just played terribly against them. In fact that loss was very similar to our other losses on more than one level. We gave up way to many 3 pointers to a big man. We ran out of gas down the stretch, we couldn't score when it mattered. We were who we are, and we lost to a team that is, if not better, at least as good as us.

(01-18-2018 02:56 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  And Western Kentucky is better than Purdue!

Sometimes teams crap the bed a la VCU against Richmond.

We did not crap the bed against VCU. That was just who we are, as we have seen in more recent games. There is far more evidence that VCU is better than us, than there is that we are better than them and just played terribly against them. In fact that loss was very similar to our other losses on more than one level. We gave up way to many 3 pointers to a big man. We ran out of gas down the stretch, we couldn't score when it mattered. We were who we are, and we lost to a team that is, if not better, at least as good as us.

Thought about a long retort, but this post is hypocritical. That team is who VCU and ODU are, but we should ignore VCU lost to Richmond by 15 and Dayton by 30? Remember these are both teams we beat easily. There have been roughly 20 games in the season and by any relevant statistical measure ODU is much higher than VCU.

Your point is we should ignore the 19 other games; ignoring that ODU is 13-4 with at least 4 wins over teams that are equal or better than VCU while we are, by far, VCU's best win and VCU is, by far, our worst loss.

If another team is your worst loss and their best win; there is a good chance you are better than them.

(01-18-2018 03:08 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:56 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-18-2018 02:51 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  And Western Kentucky is better than Purdue!

Sometimes teams crap the bed a la VCU against Richmond.

We did not crap the bed against VCU. That was just who we are, as we have seen in more recent games. There is far more evidence that VCU is better than us, than there is that we are better than them and just played terribly against them. In fact that loss was very similar to our other losses on more than one level. We gave up way to many 3 pointers to a big man. We ran out of gas down the stretch, we couldn't score when it mattered. We were who we are, and we lost to a team that is, if not better, at least as good as us.

Thought about a long retort, but this post is hypocritical. That team is who VCU and ODU are, but we should ignore VCU lost to Richmond by 15 and Dayton by 30? Remember these are both teams we beat easily. There have been roughly 20 games in the season and by any relevant statistical measure ODU is much higher than VCU.

Your point is we should ignore the 19 other games; ignoring that ODU is 13-4 with at least 4 wins over teams that are equal or better than VCU while we are, by far, VCU's best win and VCU is, by far, our worst loss.

If another team is your worst loss and their best win; there is a good chance you are better than them.

We don't agree often, but this hits the nail on the head.

Man, I just read all that. Whew. Sounds like a bunch of lawyers.

TLDR - we don't own the bragging rights to call VCU trash when we lose to them. We also get to enjoy it when they lose to other teams. However, by every metric, we are better than VCU this year. All in all, just worry about ODU.

How did I do

UAB at WKU is on CBSSN right now. Tight game.

Top 4 in conference is a dogfight. Think they have separated feom the pack.(despite Marshalls home win tonight).