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D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #321
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(11-28-2017 09:39 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(11-28-2017 09:12 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  As large as they want to be, it seems inevitable that they will have competitive sports. But how to get there? Seems very difficult. I can't recall any programs off hand who *launched* into NCAA D2. Yet that's the obvious place for them, in the PacWest. Are D2 conferences allowed to have associate members? They could start in USCAA or NAIA and be associate members of the PacWest without postseason access while they boot up their program, and when they are ready apply to the NCAA. Being in Hawaii it wouldn't be that hard to attract a good amount of pre-conference competitors, but it would be pretty tough to fill a full schedule without being in a conference.

D2 may or may not have rules directly about that type of membership but there are rules that make it difficult. All teams must play a minimum number of D2 competitions to qualify for postseason and there is a list of programs that the NCAA will not recognize as valid competitions. Ex: any football game against any College of Faith team is essentially viewed by the NCAA as an exhibition, win/lose and all team and individual stats are thrown out.

There is one school that they allow as an associate member without post season play. That school is Apprentice. It is a trade school, and not a college or university. They are 4 year, and have athletics to play.

As for test Pilot? I was on the NCAA site, and they had Alaska Pacific as a test pilot for D1. The only sport they had as varsity is skiing. They don't have much of anything else.
11-29-2017 03:33 AM
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Post: #322
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(11-29-2017 03:33 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(11-28-2017 09:39 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(11-28-2017 09:12 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  As large as they want to be, it seems inevitable that they will have competitive sports. But how to get there? Seems very difficult. I can't recall any programs off hand who *launched* into NCAA D2. Yet that's the obvious place for them, in the PacWest. Are D2 conferences allowed to have associate members? They could start in USCAA or NAIA and be associate members of the PacWest without postseason access while they boot up their program, and when they are ready apply to the NCAA. Being in Hawaii it wouldn't be that hard to attract a good amount of pre-conference competitors, but it would be pretty tough to fill a full schedule without being in a conference.

D2 may or may not have rules directly about that type of membership but there are rules that make it difficult. All teams must play a minimum number of D2 competitions to qualify for postseason and there is a list of programs that the NCAA will not recognize as valid competitions. Ex: any football game against any College of Faith team is essentially viewed by the NCAA as an exhibition, win/lose and all team and individual stats are thrown out.

There is one school that they allow as an associate member without post season play. That school is Apprentice. It is a trade school, and not a college or university. They are 4 year, and have athletics to play.

As for test Pilot? I was on the NCAA site, and they had Alaska Pacific as a test pilot for D1. The only sport they had as varsity is skiing. They don't have much of anything else.

We are talking about D2 policies, each division has rules unique to them. Apprentice does not award degrees therefore is not allowed to be affiliated in any way with NCAA or NAIA. The NCAA allowing its members to play them in countable contests does not mean they are an associate member or any other type of member.

Did you not read the thread where that was discussed. That is a placeholder or programmer error. It is on almost every page with a different entry for each division. There is no test pilot program, and there is no way they would have one in D1 for a school with 700 students and no official athletics department.
11-29-2017 11:42 AM
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Post: #323
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(09-11-2017 11:15 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 03:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  Humboldt State football is in jeopardy:

http://www.times-standard.com/article/NJ.../170909863

That would put the GNAC at four football members. Which would be further pressure for APU (and Central Washington?) to go D1. Western Oregon back to the NAIA? Don't know what to think about Simon Fraser.

Not any more.
Humbolt St football survives!
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12-05-2017 08:38 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #324
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/grace-un...eb7cc.html


Grace University in Nebraska who was considered one of the candidates to become NAIA member is closing their doors after the 2017-2018 school year. they bought the old Dana campus, and that went to waste.
12-15-2017 06:01 PM
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Post: #325
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Guess that puts a nail in Grace getting a Big East invite. Would have been a great travel partner with Creighton
12-15-2017 10:37 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
http://www.easttexasmatters.com/sports/u.../909142128

UT Tyler preparing an application to join D2. Currently they play in the D3 American Southwest Conference.
01-11-2018 07:19 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #327
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-11-2018 07:19 PM)RandomFan Wrote:  http://www.easttexasmatters.com/sports/u.../909142128

UT Tyler preparing an application to join D2. Currently they play in the D3 American Southwest Conference.

So, could be going to the Lone Star Conference? Perhaps that is why the one school left out of the LSC and Heartland happened?
01-16-2018 08:11 AM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Benedictine (Illinois) officially applies for move to D2.

https://thecandor.wordpress.com/2018/01/...vision-ii/
01-16-2018 03:33 PM
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Post: #329
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-16-2018 03:33 PM)RandomFan Wrote:  Benedictine (Illinois) officially applies for move to D2.

https://thecandor.wordpress.com/2018/01/...vision-ii/

Interesting that their University Planning Council recommended against the move, but they are doing it anyway.
01-16-2018 07:37 PM
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Post: #330
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
A couple things to add here.

Within the past bunch of years the Georgia Board of Regents has consolidated quite a few institutions.
Georgia State University (D1) and Georgia Perimeter College (NJCAA) = Goergia State University (D1)
Waycross College (NJCAA) and South Goergia College (NJCAA) = South Georgia State College (NJCAA for now)
Macon State College (No Athletics) and Middle Georgia College (NJCAA) = Middle Georgia State College (NAIA)
Gainesville State College (No Athletics) and North Georgia State College and University (D2) = University of North Georgia (D2)
Augusta State University (D2) and Georgia Health Sciences University (No Athletics) = Georgia Regents University (until they were sued) = Augusta University (D2, except for golf)
Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College (NJCAA) and Bainbridge College (no athletics) = ABAC (NJCAA for now. They have multiple 4-year programs)
Georgia Southern (DII) and Armstrong State (DII) = Georgia Southern (D1)
Albany State University (DII) and Darton State (NJCAA) = Albany State (D2)
Kennesaw State (DI) and Southern Poly (NAIA) = Kennesaw State (D1)

Many of the other NJCAA schools in the state are moving to a hybrid system where they also offer 4 year degrees. The Technical College System is expanding their role and replacing the community colleges in many areas. A few of them play sports as part of the NJCAA's Georgia Collegiate Athletic Conference.

So in terms of movement, I would expect that there are a few more schools that would make the jump to NAIA in Georgia within the next few years. There might even be a school or two that drop from D2 to D3. I was talking to a senior admin at one of the public schools in the state who mentioned to me that their school is considering dropping to D3. The school has quite high academic standards and the discussion has started. One sticking point is that the fee to submit the application is above 100k!



On a side note, I am a NJCAA cross country coach. We compete against NJCAA, NAIA, D3, and D2. Schools. By and large the difference between a NAIA school and D2 in cross country depends on the amount of money for scholarships. There are a few really good NAIA schools (SCAD-Atlanta comes to mind) but also some really bad ones. There are some good D2 schools (Augusta, GCSU) and some really bad ones (FVSU, Paine). It depends on the amount of money a school is willing to spend.

One last thing. West Georgia has hinted at moves up to D1 for a while. They and UNA were good competition. With the deal that the A-Sun and the Big South have, they also might make the move. Recently, they hired away the Cross Country coach from Mercer.
01-17-2018 07:05 AM
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Post: #331
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
I wonder if Mount Union(Oh), George Fox(Ore), and UW-Whitewater have ever looked into moving to D2? I think they may have reached their ceilings in D3, and really do need to go D2. Not necessarily just in football, but in basketball also.

Question for AZCats: if there were some sort of agreement that either the Southland or the SWAC (yes, the HBCU conference) would take Arkansas Tech if they moved up, would you be for or against said move?
01-17-2018 07:10 AM
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Post: #332
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-17-2018 07:10 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I wonder if Mount Union(Oh), George Fox(Ore), and UW-Whitewater have ever looked into moving to D2? I think they may have reached their ceilings in D3, and really do need to go D2. Not necessarily just in football, but in basketball also.

Question for AZCats: if there were some sort of agreement that either the Southland or the SWAC (yes, the HBCU conference) would take Arkansas Tech if they moved up, would you be for or against said move?

George Fox has no interest. They are very satisfied being in the Northwest Conference with other small private schools in the area. They were in the NAIA in the 90's and wanted to be in that conference.

The NW conference has become very close knit group and is like the WCC or current Big East of the D3 in those terms. It's the best D3 conference in my opinion.
01-17-2018 08:06 AM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-17-2018 07:05 AM)RobtheAggie Wrote:  A couple things to add here.

Within the past bunch of years the Georgia Board of Regents has consolidated quite a few institutions.
Georgia State University (D1) and Georgia Perimeter College (NJCAA) = Goergia State University (D1)
Waycross College (NJCAA) and South Goergia College (NJCAA) = South Georgia State College (NJCAA for now)
Macon State College (No Athletics) and Middle Georgia College (NJCAA) = Middle Georgia State College (NAIA)
Gainesville State College (No Athletics) and North Georgia State College and University (D2) = University of North Georgia (D2)
Augusta State University (D2) and Georgia Health Sciences University (No Athletics) = Georgia Regents University (until they were sued) = Augusta University (D2, except for golf)
Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College (NJCAA) and Bainbridge College (no athletics) = ABAC (NJCAA for now. They have multiple 4-year programs)
Georgia Southern (DII) and Armstrong State (DII) = Georgia Southern (D1)
Albany State University (DII) and Darton State (NJCAA) = Albany State (D2)
Kennesaw State (DI) and Southern Poly (NAIA) = Kennesaw State (D1)

Many of the other NJCAA schools in the state are moving to a hybrid system where they also offer 4 year degrees. The Technical College System is expanding their role and replacing the community colleges in many areas. A few of them play sports as part of the NJCAA's Georgia Collegiate Athletic Conference.

So in terms of movement, I would expect that there are a few more schools that would make the jump to NAIA in Georgia within the next few years. There might even be a school or two that drop from D2 to D3. I was talking to a senior admin at one of the public schools in the state who mentioned to me that their school is considering dropping to D3. The school has quite high academic standards and the discussion has started. One sticking point is that the fee to submit the application is above 100k!



On a side note, I am a NJCAA cross country coach. We compete against NJCAA, NAIA, D3, and D2. Schools. By and large the difference between a NAIA school and D2 in cross country depends on the amount of money for scholarships. There are a few really good NAIA schools (SCAD-Atlanta comes to mind) but also some really bad ones. There are some good D2 schools (Augusta, GCSU) and some really bad ones (FVSU, Paine). It depends on the amount of money a school is willing to spend.

One last thing. West Georgia has hinted at moves up to D1 for a while. They and UNA were good competition. With the deal that the A-Sun and the Big South have, they also might make the move. Recently, they hired away the Cross Country coach from Mercer.

Great info and great post. Georgia has added a few NAIA schools in the last few years. Dalton State, Middle Georgia State, College of Coastal Georgia, Georgia Gwinnett have all joined and found success in the NAIA in the last 10 years. I also would not be surprised if some of those 4 year JUCOs join, or if those D2's move to the NAIA rather than drop to D3. A change to the NAIA would be less traumatic to the athletes (no loss of scholarships) and would be a financial boon, but would be a cultural change for the administration, possibly a traumatic one.
01-17-2018 12:33 PM
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Post: #334
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
The one GA school that I talked about is looking at D3, not NAIA. Their focus is strong academics. So NAIA would not even be looked at.

Of the the 4 other recently new NAIA schools that you mentioned, Dalton ST, Middle Georgia, Coastal Georgia were all NJCAA not too long ago. Ga Gwinnett is a really new school that opened in 2005.

As mentioned in my previous post, the University System of Georgia seems to be looking at the NAIA as a home for the no longer JuCos.


One additional thing, a long time ago in this thread there was a mention of a few states with public D3 schools with Wisconsin being mentioned. New York has a dozen of so D3 schools.
SUNY Potsdam, Plattsburg, Geneseo, Brockport, Oswego, Buffalo, Ferdonia, etc.
01-17-2018 04:01 PM
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Post: #335
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
One other thing, the following are listed as "4-Year State Colleges" on the University System of Georgia website:
ABAC
Atlanta Metropolitan
East Georgia
Georgia Highlands
Gordon St
South Georgia

All still play sports at the NJCAA level, but could move up if they desired.
01-17-2018 04:07 PM
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Post: #336
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-17-2018 04:01 PM)RobtheAggie Wrote:  The one GA school that I talked about is looking at D3, not NAIA. Their focus is strong academics. So NAIA would not even be looked at.

The NAIA's academic requirements are:

SAT: 860
GPA: 2.0

NCAA D2's requirements are:
SAT: 820
GPA: 2.0

NCAA D3 has no academic requirements.

So maybe they should rethink things.
01-17-2018 05:24 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-17-2018 07:10 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I wonder if Mount Union(Oh), George Fox(Ore), and UW-Whitewater have ever looked into moving to D2? I think they may have reached their ceilings in D3, and really do need to go D2. Not necessarily just in football, but in basketball also.

Question for AZCats: if there were some sort of agreement that either the Southland or the SWAC (yes, the HBCU conference) would take Arkansas Tech if they moved up, would you be for or against said move?

The SWAC is a non-starter for the top reason of they do not participate in NCAA football postseason championship.

If ATU was to move up to the SLC, we would need to:
*Triple the athletic budget to compete with the top of the conference.
*Increase scholarships by 29 just for football.
*Add at least 4 sports for which there are currently no facilities available.
*Major improvements for current facilities.

ATU does not need to be D1. We grew from 3,000 to 12,000 in D2 and there is no real additional exposure being in the Southland compared to where we are now. There is no substantial revenue increase to outweigh the high costs.

The Great American Conference was formed to reduce travel costs and missed class time. This is the first time in our history that we have not been at the extreme end of the conference footprint. All of that goes away in any D1 conference. ATU does place an emphasis on academics so having a close-knit conference is important. In the GAC, we have only 2 trips of more than 300 miles with the longest one at 385 miles. The longest conference trip is 550 miles (Monticello, AR - Alva, OK).

The ultimate goal in sports is to win championships. We can do that in D2 but not a snowball's chance in Hades of that happening in D1. Since the formation of the GAC in 2011-12, we have advanced to NCAA postseason play 28 times in 8 of the 10 sports we sponsor (all but women's cross country and football). Football had 3 postseason appearances while in the Gulf South Conference. Cross Country has competed in the regionals but I don't count it because there is no formal selection process similar to all other sports and every school runs in that meet to qualify for the national meet. All of this brings excitement and energy to campus that would not happen if we were D1.

Our biggest accomplishments in D2 have been:
*1998-99 Women's Basketball Runner-up, losing to North Dakota 80-63 in the championship game.
*2017 Men's Golf 3rd place, losing to Lynn in the semifinal match by 1 stroke.
*Hosting NCAA postseason events 9 times, which are additional opportunities that we have been able to give back to the community.

So, this has been a very long-winded way to say "NO". I really don't see anything that would benefit Arkansas Tech in academics or athletics in a very significant manner that is any different than what we have experienced since moving to D2 in 1995-96. D2 gives us the opportunity to keep the balance of strong academic achievements and a highly competitive athletic program.
01-17-2018 08:46 PM
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Post: #338
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Some movement in the D2 ranks in my area of the world:

GLVC losing Wisconsin-Parkside to GLIAC. Rumored to be adding Benedictine and Southwest Baptist.
MIAA rumored to be losing Southwest Baptist to GLVC, Newman is word on the street to be added to the MIAA.
01-17-2018 10:36 PM
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Post: #339
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-17-2018 10:36 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Some movement in the D2 ranks in my area of the world:

GLVC losing Wisconsin-Parkside to GLIAC. Rumored to be adding Benedictine and Southwest Baptist.
MIAA rumored to be losing Southwest Baptist to GLVC, Newman is word on the street to be added to the MIAA.

Makes sense. Parkside has already announced their move to the GLIAC for 2018-19.

Newman makes sense as a MIAA school as they turned down the Lone Star.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2018 03:22 AM by NoDak.)
01-17-2018 10:48 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(01-17-2018 08:46 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 07:10 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I wonder if Mount Union(Oh), George Fox(Ore), and UW-Whitewater have ever looked into moving to D2? I think they may have reached their ceilings in D3, and really do need to go D2. Not necessarily just in football, but in basketball also.

Question for AZCats: if there were some sort of agreement that either the Southland or the SWAC (yes, the HBCU conference) would take Arkansas Tech if they moved up, would you be for or against said move?

The SWAC is a non-starter for the top reason of they do not participate in NCAA football postseason championship.

If ATU was to move up to the SLC, we would need to:
*Triple the athletic budget to compete with the top of the conference.
*Increase scholarships by 29 just for football.
*Add at least 4 sports for which there are currently no facilities available.
*Major improvements for current facilities.

ATU does not need to be D1. We grew from 3,000 to 12,000 in D2 and there is no real additional exposure being in the Southland compared to where we are now. There is no substantial revenue increase to outweigh the high costs.

The Great American Conference was formed to reduce travel costs and missed class time. This is the first time in our history that we have not been at the extreme end of the conference footprint. All of that goes away in any D1 conference. ATU does place an emphasis on academics so having a close-knit conference is important. In the GAC, we have only 2 trips of more than 300 miles with the longest one at 385 miles. The longest conference trip is 550 miles (Monticello, AR - Alva, OK).

The ultimate goal in sports is to win championships. We can do that in D2 but not a snowball's chance in Hades of that happening in D1. Since the formation of the GAC in 2011-12, we have advanced to NCAA postseason play 28 times in 8 of the 10 sports we sponsor (all but women's cross country and football). Football had 3 postseason appearances while in the Gulf South Conference. Cross Country has competed in the regionals but I don't count it because there is no formal selection process similar to all other sports and every school runs in that meet to qualify for the national meet. All of this brings excitement and energy to campus that would not happen if we were D1.

Our biggest accomplishments in D2 have been:
*1998-99 Women's Basketball Runner-up, losing to North Dakota 80-63 in the championship game.
*2017 Men's Golf 3rd place, losing to Lynn in the semifinal match by 1 stroke.
*Hosting NCAA postseason events 9 times, which are additional opportunities that we have been able to give back to the community.

So, this has been a very long-winded way to say "NO". I really don't see anything that would benefit Arkansas Tech in academics or athletics in a very significant manner that is any different than what we have experienced since moving to D2 in 1995-96. D2 gives us the opportunity to keep the balance of strong academic achievements and a highly competitive athletic program.

I don't mind your "long-winded no." In fact, I rather appreciate it. I can see what you are saying in one way in that you really can't see much of a difference between FCS & D2; but there is at least two key differences for sure: a chance to parparticipate in the NCAA March Madness Tournament, a chance at the NIT Tournament, and a chance to go to the College World Series.
01-18-2018 01:44 AM
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