I think it's easy to bypass BEF existence for exactly the reasons above with regard to politics and the basketball school influence. VT had to buy its way into the conference, Miami "settled" for the Big East after the ACC turned them down throughout the 80's (supposedly even leveraging themselves for full membership into BE), and stuff like Rutgers getting a "no" vote from the same school who benefited from them not joining initially.

Something had to form in the east for football. BEF is what you got.

Let's say Paterno leaves PSU for the pro's (or he and Tarman lose their jobs over the Sandusky thing way back toward the start)...you wonder what eastern D1 would have looked like. Penn State wouldn't likely be the dominant rock of the region; likely more agreeable to sharing and other terms with other schools. Maybe it gets them into the Big East. Maybe 80's football mediocrity turns the Big Ten completely off? Maybe without a dominant northeastern program, now Army and Navy come back to the group table?

(08-31-2017 03:36 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Assume some kind of arrangement came together with the following eastern independents after the Big East turn-down of PSU:

Army
Navy
Penn State
Temple
Rutgers
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
South Carolina
West Virginia

You now have Pitt, BC, and Syracuse out of a structure with big public flagships and other prominent programs. The intention of this group isn't necessarily stability; it's network leveraging. And now it spans from NYC metro to southern FL with NY-NJ, Philly, Baltimore, and Miami all covered. This, I think, forces a huge panic attack for the SEC, ACC, and Big Ten. Does it trickle westward and force SWC and Big XII to alter course?

Does it essentially kill Big East football before it ever starts?

I can't imagine an eastern league without Pitt, Cuse, and BC...but, since it never really happened to begin with, what about a different slant on it and the consequences of a new "big school" football conference?

PSU could have pursued that route but didn't. Question is why not? Did they already have plans to pursue B10? Did they think an eastern league without BC, Cuse and Pitt wasn't worthy of them? If they did manage to get the above , would that have persuaded BC and Cuse to give in and join them?

Of the 11 potential North-Eastern college football teams...



4 went to the ACC
3 went to the Big Ten
1 went to the Big XII
3 landed in the American
(from Northeast Pecking Order)

Very splintered.

Now there exists a potential for the same thing to happen to the Texas/Great Plains schools.

Here is a thought: what if the ACC would have jumped on the 12 team conference idea back when they added Florida St? Miami for sure would have been one of the three additional schools to get in. Maybe VT and BC still end up being 11 and 12 or maybe the football landscape of the early 90s results in other schools having more clout.

Regardless, the Big East football conference that formed with 8 schools now only has 5 in play. Do they still try to form a league under the BE banner with some Metro schools or do they stay independent? Maybe the Big East schools end up playing as affiliates under a Meto banner instead. Only Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were in the Big East in '90 and if BC goes to earlier and Miami is spoken for Pitt and 'Cuse probably don't have the power to bring in all the A-10 and Metro schools.

(09-06-2017 08:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here is a thought: what if the ACC would have jumped on the 12 team conference idea back when they added Florida St? Miami for sure would have been one of the three additional schools to get in. Maybe VT and BC still end up being 11 and 12 or maybe the football landscape of the early 90s results in other schools having more clout.

Regardless, the Big East football conference that formed with 8 schools now only has 5 in play. Do they still try to form a league under the BE banner with some Metro schools or do they stay independent? Maybe the Big East schools end up playing as affiliates under a Meto banner instead. Only Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were in the Big East in '90 and if BC goes to earlier and Miami is spoken for Pitt and 'Cuse probably don't have the power to bring in all the A-10 and Metro schools.

BC was not as valuable in 1990 as Syracuse. I strongly doubt that the ACC would have expanded north of Maryland at the time since Penn State was already out of the equation. Perhaps the ACC re-invites South Carolina, Miami and maybe Tulane, instead of looking north.

(09-06-2017 08:21 PM)megadrone Wrote:  

(09-06-2017 08:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here is a thought: what if the ACC would have jumped on the 12 team conference idea back when they added Florida St? Miami for sure would have been one of the three additional schools to get in. Maybe VT and BC still end up being 11 and 12 or maybe the football landscape of the early 90s results in other schools having more clout.

Regardless, the Big East football conference that formed with 8 schools now only has 5 in play. Do they still try to form a league under the BE banner with some Metro schools or do they stay independent? Maybe the Big East schools end up playing as affiliates under a Meto banner instead. Only Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were in the Big East in '90 and if BC goes to earlier and Miami is spoken for Pitt and 'Cuse probably don't have the power to bring in all the A-10 and Metro schools.

BC was not as valuable in 1990 as Syracuse. I strongly doubt that the ACC would have expanded north of Maryland at the time since Penn State was already out of the equation. Perhaps the ACC re-invites South Carolina, Miami and maybe Tulane, instead of looking north.

I don't recall, was Penn St to the Big Ten already in motion by 1990?

What if the 4 schools the ACC adds are Miami and Florida St to the South and Penn St and Pitt (or Syracuse) in the North?

You put 3 nineties juggernauts together in one league. The Big Ten never gets Penn St or if they do its not until 2010. Maybe the Florida pair and Penn St are happy in the ACC and has enough value that they all stay and Maryland is never lured away.

I think the byproduct of this newly expanded ACC is that WVU, Rutgers, and Temple of the A-10 unite with VT, Cincy, Louisville, and Memphis of the Metro and Syracuse and BC come in as football affiliates.

Paterno's plan in 1981 was apparently to put together an all-sports conference with BC, PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, WVU, and UMD. Maryland is an interesting choice -- could they have been persuaded to leave the ACC back then? I know that there was some discontent over the NC focus of the conference (which I think was the reason SC left), but I don't know when that would have started for UMD.

The best for ECU is one that almost happened.

The "Super Metro"

North - Pitt, WVU, Louisville, Cincy, Temple, BC, Rutgers, Syracuse

South - ECU, SC, FSU, USM, Memphis, Tulane, Miami, VT

http://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/06/29/M...646632000/

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

(09-06-2017 10:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Paterno's plan in 1981 was apparently to put together an all-sports conference with BC, PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, WVU, and UMD. Maryland is an interesting choice -- could they have been persuaded to leave the ACC back then? I know that there was some discontent over the NC focus of the conference (which I think was the reason SC left), but I don't know when that would have started for UMD.

We'll never know. Paterno had a very Penn State favorable model of revenue sharing in mind; Pitt was the only school that could tell Paterno to pound sand (and did), so I don't know if any progress toward getting Maryland out of the ACC was made. That conference died with Pitt and Penn State not able to agree on football revenue sharing.

(09-06-2017 08:36 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I don't recall, was Penn St to the Big Ten already in motion by 1990?

Yes, but not necessarily formally.

Then-president Bryce Jordan was having conversations with the leadership from Illinois (a former PSU guy) and others (at least Northwestern, I think) for much of the 80's. Before, during, and obviously after the Big East thing.

In 89 or 90, a PSU person leaked it out that PSU was going to the Big Ten. The formal vote hadn't happened yet. It went over like a fart in church with a lot of Big Ten school ADs and coaches, and some presidents. The vote was put on ice for a year.

Now, if PSU doesn't get the votes in the Big Ten, I think you see the Big East coming back around and grabbing them. However, I do see this as where and when Pitt gets into the Big Ten. I get the impression they were liked well enough by the others anyway...some, probably even more pronounced today, would have wanted Pitt more than PSU. But, it wasn't like it was great times out there in Pitt, either. The school would have had to commit to a new OCS.

there was an proposal floated around for FB affiliate membership in the ACC for BC Cuse and Pitt. Was never embraced and we all know what happened next

(09-07-2017 08:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  there was an proposal floated around for FB affiliate membership in the ACC for BC Cuse and Pitt. Was never embraced and we all know what happened next

Interesting. When was that?

(09-07-2017 09:43 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 08:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  there was an proposal floated around for FB affiliate membership in the ACC for BC Cuse and Pitt. Was never embraced and we all know what happened next

Interesting. When was that?

Around 1990, based on Jake Crouthamel's journal

Jake Crouthamel memoir/history of the Big East

Flyover or Airplane Super Conference in the past.
1959
Washington
Stanford
California
UCLA
USC
Army
Air Force
Navy
Notre Dame
Penn
Penn State
Duke
Georgia Tech

1951 idea by Notre Dame's President
Notre Dame
Iowa State
Indiana
Michigan State
Oklahoma
Navy
North Carolina
Penn
Pittsburgh
SMU
Texas
USC
UCLA
Yale

1957 idea
Army
Navy
Pittsburgh
Penn State
Syracuse
Notre Dame
Washington
UCLA
USC
California
Stanford
Air Force

Houston, Miami Florida, Georgia Tech, Penn, and Duke wants to join the 1957 idea as well.

Ideas about forming Independent football schools at the time to make a super conference at the time. If any one of these ideas came off? What would the ACC, MWC, AAC, PAC 12, Big 10 and IVY League would look like today?

(09-08-2017 10:50 AM)megadrone Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 09:43 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 08:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  there was an proposal floated around for FB affiliate membership in the ACC for BC Cuse and Pitt. Was never embraced and we all know what happened next

Interesting. When was that?

Around 1990, based on Jake Crouthamel's journal

Jake Crouthamel memoir/history of the Big East

It's really interesting, because you had this cluster of schools that simply didn't get along well together, and couldn't come to terms with how to come together, despite nearly seeing each other all of the time, and other conferences couldn't work with them, either. But, FSU and PSU move, and now it just goes nuts.

To think...Pitt, Cuse, and BC...wanted by the ACC back then even ahead of Miami. That's how low the ACC thought of the Hurricanes.

(09-08-2017 03:38 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(09-08-2017 10:50 AM)megadrone Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 09:43 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(09-07-2017 08:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  there was an proposal floated around for FB affiliate membership in the ACC for BC Cuse and Pitt. Was never embraced and we all know what happened next

Interesting. When was that?

Around 1990, based on Jake Crouthamel's journal

Jake Crouthamel memoir/history of the Big East

It's really interesting, because you had this cluster of schools that simply didn't get along well together, and couldn't come to terms with how to come together, despite nearly seeing each other all of the time, and other conferences couldn't work with them, either. But, FSU and PSU move, and now it just goes nuts.

To think...Pitt, Cuse, and BC...wanted by the ACC back then even ahead of Miami. That's how low the ACC thought of the Hurricanes.

To be fair, Paterno's conference didn't form mostly because Pitt stood up to Paterno. The other schools in the northeast didn't have the clout that Pitt and Penn State had at the time, and Penn State knew it. Pitt knew it as well, and they had the ability to say no.

The Big East didn't want to lose BC and Syracuse, tried to invite PSU, couldn't get it through and invited Pitt -- mostly to hold on to BC and Syracuse and thwart a third conference forming (reading between the lines of Crouthamel's notes).

But the ACC didn't really want Pitt, Cuse and BC (or at least the trio of those three) and it couldn't be made to work. By 1990 Pitt was losing its luster and BC was coming off some lean years under Bicknell. So the Big East did the next best thing for its survival and took the school no one wanted but had the best available football program (Miami), then offered the Atlantic 10 schools and VT the federated membership.

Crouthamel's point about all expansions after Villanova in 1980 being about football -- odd for a basketball conference -- was spot on.

Would Pitt really have had it so bad in the Paterno League? Sure it would have meant agreeing to the revenue plan that was in Penn St's favor but instead they lost their biggest rival to the Big Ten and thus all of the exposure of playing an annual end of season instate rivalry with a true CFB blueblood. It also meant two decades of playing in the least stable and least valuable of the BCS 6 which died a slow and painful death.

Had the Paterno League came to fruition they could have added Miami at some point and maybe Florida St too. When 12 teams and a title game became in vogue Pitt would have been in the conference that did the raiding not left behind in the rump of the raided conference.

(09-07-2017 08:37 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  there was an proposal floated around for FB affiliate membership in the ACC for BC Cuse and Pitt. Was never embraced and we all know what happened next

This would have been an interesting turn of events especially if it eventually led to full membership. Did this occur before or after Florida St became member #9?

Miami & VT would have been left in a bit of a pickle. So would the A-10 trio of WVU, Temple, and Rutgers? I wonder if this would have meant the Metro schools and this group would have banned together in a league that would have resembled the proposed 16-Team Metro football conference minus most of the heavy hitters save Miami?

(09-08-2017 10:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Would Pitt really have had it so bad in the Paterno League? Sure it would have meant agreeing to the revenue plan that was in Penn St's favor but instead they lost their biggest rival to the Big Ten and thus all of the exposure of playing an annual end of season instate rivalry with a true CFB blueblood. It also meant two decades of playing in the least stable and least valuable of the BCS 6 which died a slow and painful death.

Had the Paterno League came to fruition they could have added Miami at some point and maybe Florida St too. When 12 teams and a title game became in vogue Pitt would have been in the conference that did the raiding not left behind in the rump of the raided conference.

The biggest issue with the Paterno league was that it came either 5 years too late or 5 years too early.

If it had been formed as an all sports conference in place of the Eastern 8 it would have survived to this day, and the Big East would have become what it is today. 5 years later would have been after the CFA came into being and the schools would have realized that independence was going to go away, and have more incentive to join the conference.

Paterno himself really wanted to have a home for olympic sports and wasn't really satisfied with the Eastern 8 (slipping his withdrawal noticed under a door per the story/urban legend). Football wasn't as important for PSU then as the rest of the athletic department (or else PSU wouldn't have applied for admission into the Big East).

The Eastern 8 was founded with 4 of the 8 pieces already in place--Penn St, Pitt, Rutgers, and WVU. Temple surely would have agreed to join then had they received an offer from the beginning. The only thing missing is BC and Syracuse. had they offered to bring Georgetown, St John's, and Villanova to make 10 this league could have happened and been committed to both basketball and football. VT and Miami get football only invites at some point and all is well with Eastern collegiate athletics.