(07-26-2017 05:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  They'd still consider it, Stu. Because of their history in the NCC with Dakotas and Omaha. Might not pull the trigger, but would consider it.

The DU presence in the Summit is a bigger draw then the old NCC foes. But yes, being able to bring in NDSU, SDSU and Omaha is appealing to a lot of their alumni who recall the good old days when the school was someone athletically.

Yep ... 20 years ago, UNC was winning DII national title in football, beating the Dakotas to do it.

(07-26-2017 05:09 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-26-2017 04:58 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Texas is not part of the Dakotas

Yes, Denver area schools (CSU, NoCo) do have more Midwestern kids than others in the West. But the Mix is Western, then Texas, then Chicago, and of course a few Kansas and Nebraska kids. I did a breakdown earlier and showed they were more Western.

You can also go through the stats on out of State for the school. The out of State proportion is small, under 10%. The Western States make up the majority (not counting foreign citizens, who actually are the largest group of out of state). Texas is next. Again the Chicago connection to Colorado schools is here with the next largest chunk. This seems to be a Denver thing, and it fits the gateway to the west that is the city and towns on the upper front range. Californians the most, then Texans, Chicago area transplants, and then smatterings of others, the Western States most of those.

Your argument falls apart because the Summit is neither Chicago nor Texas.

You really are just as bad as NoDak. Clueless to the core, unwilling to admit you are wrong, and have very little knowledge.

I am just sitting here eating popcorn watching the 2 North Dakota and North Dakota State posters bashing each other. As long as they both do not bash me, I am just content.

(07-26-2017 05:15 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-26-2017 05:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  They'd still consider it, Stu. Because of their history in the NCC with Dakotas and Omaha. Might not pull the trigger, but would consider it.

The DU presence in the Summit is a bigger draw then the old NCC foes. But yes, being able to bring in NDSU, SDSU and Omaha is appealing to a lot of their alumni who recall the good old days when the school was someone athletically.

All the Big Sky can do is add either Colorado Mines or Colorado Mesa as a travel partner? I do not see Northern Colorado be a risk factor of fleeing the Big Sky.

UNC has historically played Denver in hoops a total of 123 times (not sure what other sports they would become "rivals in") and this season's matchup will be the 3rd straight year they have played each other (looks like a home and home agreement). Why they would need to joint the Summit to continue that series is beyond me.

The history with the Dakotas is cool and all, but why that is used to think they would be in play for Summit seems a bit of a reach all things considered. I guess if UNC is disgruntled with BSC membership Summit would be the obvious fall back choice.

I guess the Summit can try to poach baseball from the WAC, but that means they would no longer get games on the west coast...which is closer to HI than the Dakotas are. (UNC's coach is a HI native that has landed a handful of recruits from the Islands..among other west coast locales). So even a baseball move to the Summit seems far fetched given its current coaching staff.

(07-26-2017 10:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-26-2017 05:15 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-26-2017 05:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  They'd still consider it, Stu. Because of their history in the NCC with Dakotas and Omaha. Might not pull the trigger, but would consider it.

The DU presence in the Summit is a bigger draw then the old NCC foes. But yes, being able to bring in NDSU, SDSU and Omaha is appealing to a lot of their alumni who recall the good old days when the school was someone athletically.

All the Big Sky can do is add either Colorado Mines or Colorado Mesa as a travel partner? I do not see Northern Colorado be a risk factor of fleeing the Big Sky.

If UNC left, BSC would be down to 10 full members which would be fine. No need for the BSC to backfill with a D2 moveup.

(07-27-2017 01:36 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  UNC has historically played Denver in hoops a total of 123 times (not sure what other sports they would become "rivals in") and this season's matchup will be the 3rd straight year they have played each other (looks like a home and home agreement). Why they would need to joint the Summit to continue that series is beyond me.

They don't, I agree. I still don't see why some posters are claiming that an association with Denver would be the main driver. I think it would be a "nice to have". But I think the main driver for UNC would more or less be to simply try a new direction. The Big Sky might have been seen as the logical place to land in DI. They did it. And they haven't really found much success. Their best success, for better or worse, was in the NCC. And the Summit/MVFC would be an attempt to recreate that. Plus their baseball team would be in the same conference, but that is not a huge deal.

(07-27-2017 01:36 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  The history with the Dakotas is cool and all, but why that is used to think they would be in play for Summit seems a bit of a reach all things considered. I guess if UNC is disgruntled with BSC membership Summit would be the obvious fall back choice.

Sure, it is a reach. I don't think anyone here is claiming is an obvious move or a lock to happen.

Don't think there is any evidence at all that UNC is unhappy with the Big Sky. Obviously, they aren't going to say so publicly. Do I think UNC is unhappy with the Big Sky, privately? I doubt it. Like I said, the best case for the Summit would be if UNC, out of the blue essentially, decided it wanted to try a new direction.

(07-27-2017 01:36 AM)SDHornet Wrote:  I guess the Summit can try to poach baseball from the WAC, but that means they would no longer get games on the west coast...which is closer to HI than the Dakotas are. (UNC's coach is a HI native that has landed a handful of recruits from the Islands..among other west coast locales). So even a baseball move to the Summit seems far fetched given its current coaching staff.

If you're going to argue that UNC can play Denver non-conf, then I can argue that UNC can play baseball on the west coast non-conf.

But I don't think the Summit would target UNC baseball.

(07-27-2017 08:49 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If you're going to argue that UNC can play Denver non-conf, then I can argue that UNC can play baseball on the west coast non-conf.

But I don't think the Summit would target UNC baseball.

Not apples to apples. Playing a team non-con that is an hour drive away <> to playing teams a 2 hour flight away. Sure they might be able to land a non-con series or two, but the WAC guarantees them access year in and year out in the WC (at least 2 WC trips now, 3 every other year when CBU joins (didn't include UVU as a WC series)) on top of whatever non-con they can schedule now. So their WC exposure would take a hit.

EDIT: I think the Summit would target the if they lose a baseball member and need to find a 6th to meet regs.

After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.


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(07-27-2017 11:08 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.


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Then you missed the part where UND's addition to the Summit transcends that conference into FBS P5 status.

(07-27-2017 11:08 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.

That would mean the Dakotas, Omaha, and Denver would end up in the WAC, and lose out in hosting tournaments in the Dakotas.

I think at the least the Dakotas and Omaha will fight the good fight to keep the Summit/NCC 2.0 alive for as long as possible.

(07-28-2017 08:46 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-27-2017 11:08 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.

That would mean the Dakotas, Omaha, and Denver would end up in the WAC, and lose out in hosting tournaments in the Dakotas.

I think at the least the Dakotas and Omaha will fight the good fight to keep the Summit/NCC 2.0 alive for as long as possible.

If the WAC survived, I don't think the Summit is folding.

Well the starting premise is that the Summit folded ... so even if the WAC had already folded before then, you'd have to have some subset of [Seattle, Utah Valley, Bakersfield, Cal Baptist, (possibly UCSD and/or Azuza), NM St, UT RGV, Denver, UMKC, Omaha, Dakotas] banding together under some banner.

GCU can just go away, and Chicago St will hopefully be NAIA by then.

(07-28-2017 08:54 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 08:46 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-27-2017 11:08 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.

That would mean the Dakotas, Omaha, and Denver would end up in the WAC, and lose out in hosting tournaments in the Dakotas.

I think at the least the Dakotas and Omaha will fight the good fight to keep the Summit/NCC 2.0 alive for as long as possible.

If the WAC survived, I don't think the Summit is folding.

It is different. The WAC survived because there were available schools at the time. Cal State Bakersfield was independent. UVU, UTRGV and Chicago State were in the Great West, a league without an autobid. GCU was a D2 moveup. UMKC wanted out of the Summit and the WAC paid their exit fee of $250,000 and waived the entry fee to the WAC of $450,000.

The Summit does not have the same options. They really need a D2 moveup. In California, there are 22 D2 schools. The WAC can always find a D2 school that is willing to move up. Cal Baptist is joining the WAC in 2018 and Biola University is moving up from D3 to D2 to replace them.

Sac State or UNC could easily move into the WAC for Olympic sports. They both already play baseball in that league. No one out West wants to see the WAC fail because that would be a lost autobid for the west. The BSC is more likely to let a school like UNC move Olympic sports to the WAC than to the Summit.

The Summit needs Midwest schools. Find a D2 school that can spend money. It costs $1.4 million just for the application fee. I would not like the fact that Fort Wayne wants into the Horizon. They may just find a way to make it happen.

This thread is supposed to be about the Horizon ... and there is already another thread for the Summit. Just saying .... the two are basically the same, at this point. Anyway ...

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  In California, there are 22 D2 schools. The WAC can always find a D2 school that is willing to move up.

Why are California DII schools so much more wiling to move up than Northern Sun DII schools??

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Sac State or UNC could easily move into the WAC for Olympic sports. They both already play baseball in that league. No one out West wants to see the WAC fail because that would be a lost autobid for the west. The BSC is more likely to let a school like UNC move Olympic sports to the WAC than to the Summit.

I see zero percent chance of UNC wanting to move to the WAC. It does play baseball there, as did UND, because both schools wanted to align baseball with "the west", like their main conference. And for whatever reason, UNC likes its baseball team and doesn't want to drop it.

Sac St, on the other hand, would make perfect sense as a Big West school. But don't think they'd want to "drop down" to the WAC, from the Big Sky. Don't think they'd save much money on travel.

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  The Summit needs Midwest schools. Find a D2 school that can spend money.

If it were that easy, it would've been done. I'm hopeful that St Cloud or Duluth can make the move, but I haven't read or seen anything to suggest there is any talk or interest on their sides.

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  It costs $1.4 million just for the application fee.

Assuming this is referring to the NCAA. If so ... that's quite a deterrent to any school looking to move to DI, especially given the type of schools that are left outside of DI now. Probably few with both the ability and ambition to even get the money for that kind of fee ....

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  I would not like the fact that Fort Wayne wants into the Horizon.

There is nothing we can do about it. Especially with IU Indy getting the call up, I'm certain that FW would take a Horizon call in a nanosecond. And I do wish them best of luck ... they are very much outliers in the current day Summit/NCC 2.0

(07-28-2017 08:46 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-27-2017 11:08 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.

That would mean the Dakotas, Omaha, and Denver would end up in the WAC, and lose out in hosting tournaments in the Dakotas.

I think at the least the Dakotas and Omaha will fight the good fight to keep the Summit/NCC 2.0 alive for as long as possible.

Well, look at the bright side, if UND loses (looses for Raider fans), they could go back to being the Sioux again.


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No, that ship has sailed and sunk. Hockey is what matters the most, and being able to play Minn and Wisc in hockey alone is worth it to UND to get rid of the name. It's gone

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 08:54 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 08:46 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-27-2017 11:08 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  After reading all this it might be best for the Summit to fold and disperse its members elsewhere.

That would mean the Dakotas, Omaha, and Denver would end up in the WAC, and lose out in hosting tournaments in the Dakotas.

I think at the least the Dakotas and Omaha will fight the good fight to keep the Summit/NCC 2.0 alive for as long as possible.

If the WAC survived, I don't think the Summit is folding.

It is different. The WAC survived because there were available schools at the time. Cal State Bakersfield was independent. UVU, UTRGV and Chicago State were in the Great West, a league without an autobid. GCU was a D2 moveup. UMKC wanted out of the Summit and the WAC paid their exit fee of $250,000 and waived the entry fee to the WAC of $450,000.

The Summit does not have the same options. They really need a D2 moveup. In California, there are 22 D2 schools. The WAC can always find a D2 school that is willing to move up. Cal Baptist is joining the WAC in 2018 and Biola University is moving up from D3 to D2 to replace them.

Sac State or UNC could easily move into the WAC for Olympic sports. They both already play baseball in that league. No one out West wants to see the WAC fail because that would be a lost autobid for the west. The BSC is more likely to let a school like UNC move Olympic sports to the WAC than to the Summit.

The Summit needs Midwest schools. Find a D2 school that can spend money. It costs $1.4 million just for the application fee. I would not like the fact that Fort Wayne wants into the Horizon. They may just find a way to make it happen.

Biola is moving up from NAIA, not D3. That is where all the recent California schools moving up from into D2 were from the NAIA. Rowan from D3 is the recent one talking about moving up, but they are in New Jersey, and they want to go to D1.

Dixie State might be another one that could move up to D1.
Western Washington, San Francisco State, Academy of Arts (San Francisco), The Alaska twins, Cal. Poly-Pomona, San Bernardino State, Hawaii-Hilo, Chaminade, Metro State, Regis, the Texas lone star schools are all rumbles as WAC targets. Could the Summit want a Montana school and can't get the Big Sky schools? They could grab Montana State-Billings. They are flirting with the idea of adding football.

(07-28-2017 10:04 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Sac State or UNC could easily move into the WAC for Olympic sports. They both already play baseball in that league. No one out West wants to see the WAC fail because that would be a lost autobid for the west. The BSC is more likely to let a school like UNC move Olympic sports to the WAC than to the Summit.

I see zero percent chance of UNC wanting to move to the WAC. It does play baseball there, as did UND, because both schools wanted to align baseball with "the west", like their main conference. And for whatever reason, UNC likes its baseball team and doesn't want to drop it.

Sac St, on the other hand, would make perfect sense as a Big West school. But don't think they'd want to "drop down" to the WAC, from the Big Sky. Don't think they'd save much money on travel.

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  The Summit needs Midwest schools. Find a D2 school that can spend money.

If it were that easy, it would've been done. I'm hopeful that St Cloud or Duluth can make the move, but I haven't read or seen anything to suggest there is any talk or interest on their sides.

LOL! Sac State would "drop down" to the WAC? The Big Sky is a good FCS football conference. From there, it is one of the worst basketball conferences in the country and does not play men's baseball or men's soccer. For Olympic sports, any conference is a step up from the Big Sky.

UNC already has their Baseball program and their Women's Swimming and Diving program in the WAC. If they were interested in any way with the Summit they could simply move those programs to the Summit. Or would have joined the Summit instead of the WAC for these two sports. The WAC is a western conference with headquarters in Denver. The Summit is a Midwest conference with headquarters in the Chicago area. It is easy to see where UNC would end up if they could move their Olympic sports.

If you are right and the Summit has no D2 options, then the league is in trouble. The D1 options are very limited. Most conferences with limited D1 options have to look at D2 for help. The Atlantic Sun has been doing that for years with North Alabama next up in 2018. The WAC is adding Cal Baptist in 2018 after adding GCU in 2013. Without football and with small markets that are spread out, it is difficult for the Summit to attract a D1 school.

The $1.4 million application fee to the NCAA was designed to make it more difficult to move up from D2.

(07-29-2017 03:34 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 10:04 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  Sac State or UNC could easily move into the WAC for Olympic sports. They both already play baseball in that league. No one out West wants to see the WAC fail because that would be a lost autobid for the west. The BSC is more likely to let a school like UNC move Olympic sports to the WAC than to the Summit.

I see zero percent chance of UNC wanting to move to the WAC. It does play baseball there, as did UND, because both schools wanted to align baseball with "the west", like their main conference. And for whatever reason, UNC likes its baseball team and doesn't want to drop it.

Sac St, on the other hand, would make perfect sense as a Big West school. But don't think they'd want to "drop down" to the WAC, from the Big Sky. Don't think they'd save much money on travel.

(07-28-2017 09:49 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  The Summit needs Midwest schools. Find a D2 school that can spend money.

If it were that easy, it would've been done. I'm hopeful that St Cloud or Duluth can make the move, but I haven't read or seen anything to suggest there is any talk or interest on their sides.

LOL! Sac State would "drop down" to the WAC? The Big Sky is a good FCS football conference. From there, it is one of the worst basketball conferences in the country and does not play men's baseball or men's soccer. For Olympic sports, any conference is a step up from the Big Sky.

UNC already has their Baseball program and their Women's Swimming and Diving program in the WAC. If they were interested in any way with the Summit they could simply move those programs to the Summit. Or would have joined the Summit instead of the WAC for these two sports. The WAC is a western conference with headquarters in Denver. The Summit is a Midwest conference with headquarters in the Chicago area. It is easy to see where UNC would end up if they could move their Olympic sports.

If you are right and the Summit has no D2 options, then the league is in trouble. The D1 options are very limited. Most conferences with limited D1 options have to look at D2 for help. The Atlantic Sun has been doing that for years with North Alabama next up in 2018. The WAC is adding Cal Baptist in 2018 after adding GCU in 2013. Without football and with small markets that are spread out, it is difficult for the Summit to attract a D1 school.

The $1.4 million application fee to the NCAA was designed to make it more difficult to move up from D2.

Not true. I've been told that the Montana's, Idaho, and EWU want into the Summit very badly. Like really really badly. Give it time.

On a serious note, I agree with your Sac State comment above. A WAC move would not be a major cost savings move, but it would get us into metro areas instead of the podunk locales that currently make up the BSC.