(06-13-2017 02:27 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  See the thing posters are ignoring in all of these merge/split/re-arrange CUSA & Sun Belt threads is that the vast majority of the Sun Belt schools are happy with how realignment has turned out so far. Texas St has a bit of a gripe being the only football playing member in Texas but as for the rest we have two geographically friendly divisions with realistic travel partners that cut costs and the Conference revenues are growing each year even without TV $$$ in the mix. Given the realities I think most of our Presidents would listen to a proposal to form a new conference or re-arrange the two but If the money wasn't there why would they agree to it?

If It Doesn’t Make Dollars, It Doesn’t Make Sense!

when (I don't think it is a matter of if) Texas State starts having some bowl seasons they will crush those CUSA schools in recruiting

they are the one that offers an "alternative" just like TCU did in the MWC Vs the CSUA and just like north Texas state did in the Sunbelt Vs the CUSA when north Texas state had their longest string of "success" in the last several decades

now to be VERY CLEAR I am not saying that Texas State will become like TCU and have that LEVEL of HIGH success, but I am saying they will be much more consistent in having 6, 7 or 8 wins and making bowl games Vs any of the Sunbelt schools that might have a bowl season here and there and then drop back to 3 or 4 wins

the exception might be UTSA that can get things rolling and do the same if they keep fan support

with the clear exception of Rice Texas State has as good or better academics than any of the CUSA Texas programs, a much nicer campus and location and a much better "college" experience and all of those things are only improving

and as for the north Texas state comparison I realize their 4 (3) year run of "success" that started with making a bowl game as a 5-7 team ended quickly and turned to total crap, but that is a case of north Texas state doing what they do best which is not being prepared, not having donor support, having total crap facilities, thinking that things were on "automatic", having massively inflated expectations for the future and generally doing everything possible to not sustain that momentum and in fact doing (or not doing) many things to kill it

the idea of having other teams in your state or area in your conference as a "rival" especially when you do not really have a history or a rivalry with them is extremely overrated and the downsides to it are as great or greater than the upsides especially when most of those teams are not good and have little desire to truly have success and they are very similar in terms of academics and other factors

you really end up feeding on each other and eating each other and dragging each other down as recruits just decide to go elsewhere

(06-13-2017 07:20 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 02:27 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  See the thing posters are ignoring in all of these merge/split/re-arrange CUSA & Sun Belt threads is that the vast majority of the Sun Belt schools are happy with how realignment has turned out so far. Texas St has a bit of a gripe being the only football playing member in Texas but as for the rest we have two geographically friendly divisions with realistic travel partners that cut costs and the Conference revenues are growing each year even without TV $$$ in the mix. Given the realities I think most of our Presidents would listen to a proposal to form a new conference or re-arrange the two but If the money wasn't there why would they agree to it?

If It Doesn’t Make Dollars, It Doesn’t Make Sense!

when (I don't think it is a matter of if) Texas State starts having some bowl seasons they will crush those CUSA schools in recruiting

they are the one that offers an "alternative" just like TCU did in the MWC Vs the CSUA and just like north Texas state did in the Sunbelt Vs the CUSA when north Texas state had their longest string of "success" in the last several decades

now to be VERY CLEAR I am not saying that Texas State will become like TCU and have that LEVEL of HIGH success, but I am saying they will be much more consistent in having 6, 7 or 8 wins and making bowl games Vs any of the Sunbelt schools that might have a bowl season here and there and then drop back to 3 or 4 wins

the exception might be UTSA that can get things rolling and do the same if they keep fan support

with the clear exception of Rice Texas State has as good or better academics than any of the CUSA Texas programs, a much nicer campus and location and a much better "college" experience and all of those things are only improving

and as for the north Texas state comparison I realize their 4 (3) year run of "success" that started with making a bowl game as a 5-7 team ended quickly and turned to total crap, but that is a case of north Texas state doing what they do best which is not being prepared, not having donor support, having total crap facilities, thinking that things were on "automatic", having massively inflated expectations for the future and generally doing everything possible to not sustain that momentum and in fact doing (or not doing) many things to kill it

the idea of having other teams in your state or area in your conference as a "rival" especially when you do not really have a history or a rivalry with them is extremely overrated and the downsides to it are as great or greater than the upsides especially when most of those teams are not good and have little desire to truly have success and they are very similar in terms of academics and other factors

you really end up feeding on each other and eating each other and dragging each other down as recruits just decide to go elsewhere

I get your theory---but I don't really buy into it. Take it to its logical extreme---if every Texas schools was in a different conference---they are all still getting 25 players each. The schools offering the BEST conference would be the most attractive---and it would roll downhill from there. In other words, it's not being in a DIFFERENT conference that matters---It's being in a BETTER conference that matters,

Right now, the Texas P5's get the bestclasses because they are in better conferences. The Texas G5 schools are largely selecting players the P5 teams have passed on. Where conference makes a difference is if you are in a BETTER conference than the rest of the Texas teams. TCU had that in the MW conference, Texas A&M has that with the SEC. Being in a different conference doesn't matter. Being in a better conference does.

At the end of the day, the Texas P5 schools are going to get who they want. The remaining 7 G5 Texas schools are going to get thier 25 players each---regardless if they are in the same or different conferences,

Frankly, all else being equal, I'd say coaching makes a MUCH bigger difference in recruiting than being in different conferences. At the CUSA/Sunbelt level---conference isn't making much difference in Texas, It's going to be more about coaches and what the individual players are looking for in a school.

where your argument does not work is the idea that "these schools are going to get their 25 players each"

players have options and better players have better options recruits are not locked into "go to a Texas school" they can go to any school anywhere if they have the grades and skills

this is why the SWC fell apart because the SWC after Arkansas left offered two things to recruits and that was IT

the SWC offered the chance to go to a private school in Texas (choice of 4) with Rice being a better academically than SMU, Baylor or TCU

and the SWC offered a chance to go to a relatively large public school in Texas with A&M and UT being better than the other two choices and really even back then with A&M pretty much being a 90 haul ass back home to Houston and only Texas Tech not being in a relatively large city or very very close to a large city (A&M)

those were the two choices that recruits had

if you look at the SWC with Arkansas there is a reason that Arkansas was always able to be successful and it was because they had a really good lock on in state recruits from Arkansas and they offered a real alternative to the other 8 programs in the SWC

if you look at an 8 team Big 8 Vs an 8 team SWC even with the Big 8 having programs from low population states like Kansas and Oklahoma (especially back then) they were still able to come into Texas and recruit hard especially OU, Nebraska and at the time Colorado

because they offered something different to recruits

and the Big 8 consistently year in and year out had more ranked teams than the SWC

when you have too many teams in the same area going after the same recruits you inevitably have a sifting of those teams and it becomes near impossible for the lower level teams to get back to winning consistently once they sift to the bottom and as those lower level teams sift to the bottom and stay there it drags down the rest of the conference with them

again you can look at the MAC, you can look at the 4 teams in the PAC 12 from California and you can look at the 4 teams from NC in the ACC

and you can compare those ACC and PAC 12 teams to ECU, SDSU, Fresno and it is just as easy if not easier for those G5 programs to win more consistently and for longer periods of time than it is for most of the same teams in the ACC or the PAC 12

none of the four NC teams in the ACC are ever major contenders for anything especially in a consistent basis......only USC is consistently good in the PAC 12....UCLA makes A&M look like over achievers, Cal sucks consistently and Stanford has long periods of being horrible......Stanford had a period of 31 seasons where they had 8 winning seasons out of 31 and that was not all that long ago

you either offer the same to recruits or you offer something different....UTSA, north Texas state and UTEP all offer exactly the same to recruits only Rice offers something different

Texas State offers something different

when the CUSA had Houston, Rice, SMU and UTEP that was 33% of the conference for 8 years (2005 to 2012)

not only that all 4 of those teams were in the same division so they were 67% of that division

those 4 teams played in the CCG four times in those 8 seasons so they played in that game 50% of the time.....so 67% of the teams in a division over 8 years only made a CCG 50% of the time.....and that is in "Texas with all that recruiting and all those markets"

on the other hand Tulsa in Oklahoma with a ton fewer recruits and OU and OkState and Arkansas right there as well went to the CCG the same number of times 4

and those 4 Texas teams that were 67% of that conference division over 8 seasons and that only went to the CCG 50% of the time......well those teams managed to win a CCG one time.......which is one time than the two times Tulsa won it

on the other half of the conference ECU that recruits against 4 ACC programs in state managed to make the CCG two times and won it both times.....so ECU from a smaller state with the same number of P5 programs to recruit against in state at that time won the conference one more time (two total) than 4 Texas teams won the conference in that same period of time and went to a CCG half as many times as a single team Vs 4 teams

USM that recruits against two other SEC programs in state managed to make the CCG two times and won it one time so USM as a single school made the CCG half as many times as 4 Texas teams and won it the same number of times as 4 Texas teams

UCF that recruits against Miami, Florida and FSU (so 3 P5 programs) and that was very new to D1-A football at that time went to the CCG 4 times in those 8 years and they won it two times

so a single team from Florida went to the CCG the same number of times in 8 years as 4 Texas teams did....and they won it one more time (2x) the number of times those 4 Texas teams did

so what that tells you is that the Texas teams were "getting their 25 recruits", but they were getting a lot of that 25 that sucked

and it was not because of P5 competition to recruit against because ECU faces the same exact issue in state and UCF faces nearly the same issue in state and USM, ECU and UCF face every other major ACC and SEC program recruiting heavily in their area as well along with the Big 10 and Big East

and the next excuse will be well "SMU just sucked at that time and death penalty" or "Rice just did not care" and "UTEP was never that good' ect

and yea part of the reason for that is because the fans and the ADs and the administrations of those programs sat around and pulled their puds about how exciting it was to get their asses kicked in a conference with 3 other Texas teams

hell at least UTEP managed to win the WAC one time

look at LaTech they managed to win the WAC 2 times and they have played in the CUSA CCG two times in three seasons

so LaTech in three seasons in the CUSA has played in the CCG one more time than Rice has in 11 seasons while Rice was "with all those Texas teams" for 11 seasons.....and not surprisingly Rice went and won it the year after SMU and dem coogs doh left the conference and UTEP was totally sucking and north Texas state brought their streak of suck from the Sun Belt and of course UTSA was barely starting football...so hell Rice was basically playing against one other program to win their half of the CUSA that year....and now they suck again with 3 other Texas teams.....that all suck

there is a reason that LaTech broke away from ULM and Louisiana it was to OFFER SOMETHING DIFFERENT

Louisiana has been in D1-A since 1978 and ULM since 1994

if you only go from 1994 for La Tech they have been to 6 bowl games and won 4

ULM has been to one and lost it

Louisiana has been to five and they are 4-1 in those 5 games

so La Tech that purposefully has avoided being in "a tight nit conference with all those other Louisiana schools" has been to the same number of bowl games as those other Louisiana schools and has the same number of bowl wins as those other Louisiana schools if you go from 1994 forward

and that with with LaTech in the WAC for a number of years

and Louisiana has a much nicer stajium than LaTech, they have great fan support and an good budget so it is not like Louisiana is ULM and Louisiana is a good university with a number of the same types of degree offerings

even in the MAC with 5 Ohio teams and 19 years of a CCG at least they split the teams in different divisions, but those 5 teams (basically about 35% of the conference because of additions and subtractions) have played in the CCG 15 times which is a bit more than their % of the conference,

so with 38 opportunities to play in the CCG (because they have teams in both divisions) and they have barely managed to keep pace with playing in the CCG relative to their % of teams in the conference and again they are in football crazy OHIO with only tOSU as a P5 team and for a while Cincy in the BE

hell Marshall that was only in the conference for 8 years managed to play in the CCG 6 times and NIU has played in it 7 times....Vs 15 times for FIVE teams all pulling their pud together in the same state in the same conference

hell Marshall won the conference and CCG 5 times in that short period of time while those 5 Ohio teams still in the MAC have won the conference and the CCG.....FIVE TIMES TOTAL

NIU a singl2 team has won the whole thing 3 times and they are 3-4......Vs the 5 Ohio teams that have won it all a total of FIVE TIMES

and Toledo, Miami and Ohio are responsible for the bulk of those appearances which gets back to the idea of the "sifting" of a conference and especially too many teams in a conference from the same state

the evidence is just very clear when you look at it

you can look at the records year in and year out it is season after season of 3 of those 5 teams having losing records and often TERRIBLE records and in some cases is it 3 of them having a losing record and the two with winning records still only winning 6 or 7 games

just like in the Big 12 with 4 Texas teams there is rarely if ever a time when all 4 are good and rarely a time of ever that more than 2 are good

you see the same thing in the PAC 12 with the California teams.....you see the same thing in the ACC with the four NC teams

no matter how many good teams the conference has overall it is almost never going to be all 4 of those teams in the same state that are the ones that are all good and rarely will it be more than 2 and often is is really only one that is good.....much more frequently than it is 3 that are good to really good

same with the CUSA and flavor of the CUSA....the Texas teams are never as a group out performing the conference or really even keeping up with the conference performance

it is simply a drag on the conference and it is just too easy for ADs to get complacent because they think that fans will settle for seeing two teams that suck from the same state play each other or they will settle for another ass beating most seasons from a team in the same state (and usually the same one that has sifted to the top most frequently)

and when you look at the opposite teams from states with a large number of P5 programs and or G5 programs the team that has broken away from any of those groups often is the team that is better able to make and sustain a winning program long term

the evidence is clear in EVERY CASE in every stare and every conference with that set up

too many teams in the same state and in the same conference is a drag on those teams and on the conference

and as for "being in a better conference" mattering.....a conference does not make a team good or great it is the collection of teams that makes a conference better or worse and the conferences that do better consistently are the ones with programs in the conference that do not beat their pud over playing teams that suck because they are in the same state or because they are geographically close to one another

that was the case with the MWC, that was the case with the WAC and that is th case even with the AAC

all of the teams in those conferences are G5 programs that have been all over the place in terms of being in the CUSA, MAC or wherever and what set those programs apart is when the administration had a chance to make a move even if they were not sure of the setup they made the move and did not sit around worrying about a few extra miles of travel or what will happen to the game they play against the other steams in the state that usually suck and that no one cares about

(06-14-2017 05:08 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  where your argument does not work is the idea that "these schools are going to get their 25 players each"

players have options and better players have better options recruits are not locked into "go to a Texas school" they can go to any school anywhere if they have the grades and skills

this is why the SWC fell apart because the SWC after Arkansas left offered two things to recruits and that was IT

the SWC offered the chance to go to a private school in Texas (choice of 4) with Rice being a better academically than SMU, Baylor or TCU

and the SWC offered a chance to go to a relatively large public school in Texas with A&M and UT being better than the other two choices and really even back then with A&M pretty much being a 90 haul ass back home to Houston and only Texas Tech not being in a relatively large city or very very close to a large city (A&M)

those were the two choices that recruits had

if you look at the SWC with Arkansas there is a reason that Arkansas was always able to be successful and it was because they had a really good lock on in state recruits from Arkansas and they offered a real alternative to the other 8 programs in the SWC

if you look at an 8 team Big 8 Vs an 8 team SWC even with the Big 8 having programs from low population states like Kansas and Oklahoma (especially back then) they were still able to come into Texas and recruit hard especially OU, Nebraska and at the time Colorado

because they offered something different to recruits

and the Big 8 consistently year in and year out had more ranked teams than the SWC

when you have too many teams in the same area going after the same recruits you inevitably have a sifting of those teams and it becomes near impossible for the lower level teams to get back to winning consistently once they sift to the bottom and as those lower level teams sift to the bottom and stay there it drags down the rest of the conference with them

again you can look at the MAC, you can look at the 4 teams in the PAC 12 from California and you can look at the 4 teams from NC in the ACC

and you can compare those ACC and PAC 12 teams to ECU, SDSU, Fresno and it is just as easy if not easier for those G5 programs to win more consistently and for longer periods of time than it is for most of the same teams in the ACC or the PAC 12

none of the four NC teams in the ACC are ever major contenders for anything especially in a consistent basis......only USC is consistently good in the PAC 12....UCLA makes A&M look like over achievers, Cal sucks consistently and Stanford has long periods of being horrible......Stanford had a period of 31 seasons where they had 8 winning seasons out of 31 and that was not all that long ago

you either offer the same to recruits or you offer something different....UTSA, north Texas state and UTEP all offer exactly the same to recruits only Rice offers something different

Texas State offers something different

when the CUSA had Houston, Rice, SMU and UTEP that was 33% of the conference for 8 years (2005 to 2012)

not only that all 4 of those teams were in the same division so they were 67% of that division

those 4 teams played in the CCG four times in those 8 seasons so they played in that game 50% of the time.....so 67% of the teams in a division over 8 years only made a CCG 50% of the time.....and that is in "Texas with all that recruiting and all those markets"

on the other hand Tulsa in Oklahoma with a ton fewer recruits and OU and OkState and Arkansas right there as well went to the CCG the same number of times 4

and those 4 Texas teams that were 67% of that conference division over 8 seasons and that only went to the CCG 50% of the time......well those teams managed to win a CCG one time.......which is one time than the two times Tulsa won it

on the other half of the conference ECU that recruits against 4 ACC programs in state managed to make the CCG two times and won it both times.....so ECU from a smaller state with the same number of P5 programs to recruit against in state at that time won the conference one more time (two total) than 4 Texas teams won the conference in that same period of time and went to a CCG half as many times as a single team Vs 4 teams

USM that recruits against two other SEC programs in state managed to make the CCG two times and won it one time so USM as a single school made the CCG half as many times as 4 Texas teams and won it the same number of times as 4 Texas teams

UCF that recruits against Miami, Florida and FSU (so 3 P5 programs) and that was very new to D1-A football at that time went to the CCG 4 times in those 8 years and they won it two times

so a single team from Florida went to the CCG the same number of times in 8 years as 4 Texas teams did....and they won it one more time (2x) the number of times those 4 Texas teams did

so what that tells you is that the Texas teams were "getting their 25 recruits", but they were getting a lot of that 25 that sucked

and it was not because of P5 competition to recruit against because ECU faces the same exact issue in state and UCF faces nearly the same issue in state and USM, ECU and UCF face every other major ACC and SEC program recruiting heavily in their area as well along with the Big 10 and Big East

and the next excuse will be well "SMU just sucked at that time and death penalty" or "Rice just did not care" and "UTEP was never that good' ect

and yea part of the reason for that is because the fans and the ADs and the administrations of those programs sat around and pulled their puds about how exciting it was to get their asses kicked in a conference with 3 other Texas teams

hell at least UTEP managed to win the WAC one time

look at LaTech they managed to win the WAC 2 times and they have played in the CUSA CCG two times in three seasons

so LaTech in three seasons in the CUSA has played in the CCG one more time than Rice has in 11 seasons while Rice was "with all those Texas teams" for 11 seasons.....and not surprisingly Rice went and won it the year after SMU and dem coogs doh left the conference and UTEP was totally sucking and north Texas state brought their streak of suck from the Sun Belt and of course UTSA was barely starting football...so hell Rice was basically playing against one other program to win their half of the CUSA that year....and now they suck again with 3 other Texas teams.....that all suck

there is a reason that LaTech broke away from ULM and Louisiana it was to OFFER SOMETHING DIFFERENT

Louisiana has been in D1-A since 1978 and ULM since 1994

if you only go from 1994 for La Tech they have been to 6 bowl games and won 4

ULM has been to one and lost it

Louisiana has been to five and they are 4-1 in those 5 games

so La Tech that purposefully has avoided being in "a tight nit conference with all those other Louisiana schools" has been to the same number of bowl games as those other Louisiana schools and has the same number of bowl wins as those other Louisiana schools if you go from 1994 forward

and that with with LaTech in the WAC for a number of years

and Louisiana has a much nicer stajium than LaTech, they have great fan support and an good budget so it is not like Louisiana is ULM and Louisiana is a good university with a number of the same types of degree offerings

even in the MAC with 5 Ohio teams and 19 years of a CCG at least they split the teams in different divisions, but those 5 teams (basically about 35% of the conference because of additions and subtractions) have played in the CCG 15 times which is a bit more than their % of the conference,

so with 38 opportunities to play in the CCG (because they have teams in both divisions) and they have barely managed to keep pace with playing in the CCG relative to their % of teams in the conference and again they are in football crazy OHIO with only tOSU as a P5 team and for a while Cincy in the BE

hell Marshall that was only in the conference for 8 years managed to play in the CCG 6 times and NIU has played in it 7 times....Vs 15 times for FIVE teams all pulling their pud together in the same state in the same conference

hell Marshall won the conference and CCG 5 times in that short period of time while those 5 Ohio teams still in the MAC have won the conference and the CCG.....FIVE TIMES TOTAL

NIU a singl2 team has won the whole thing 3 times and they are 3-4......Vs the 5 Ohio teams that have won it all a total of FIVE TIMES

and Toledo, Miami and Ohio are responsible for the bulk of those appearances which gets back to the idea of the "sifting" of a conference and especially too many teams in a conference from the same state

the evidence is just very clear when you look at it

you can look at the records year in and year out it is season after season of 3 of those 5 teams having losing records and often TERRIBLE records and in some cases is it 3 of them having a losing record and the two with winning records still only winning 6 or 7 games

just like in the Big 12 with 4 Texas teams there is rarely if ever a time when all 4 are good and rarely a time of ever that more than 2 are good

you see the same thing in the PAC 12 with the California teams.....you see the same thing in the ACC with the four NC teams

no matter how many good teams the conference has overall it is almost never going to be all 4 of those teams in the same state that are the ones that are all good and rarely will it be more than 2 and often is is really only one that is good.....much more frequently than it is 3 that are good to really good

same with the CUSA and flavor of the CUSA....the Texas teams are never as a group out performing the conference or really even keeping up with the conference performance

it is simply a drag on the conference and it is just too easy for ADs to get complacent because they think that fans will settle for seeing two teams that suck from the same state play each other or they will settle for another ass beating most seasons from a team in the same state (and usually the same one that has sifted to the top most frequently)

and when you look at the opposite teams from states with a large number of P5 programs and or G5 programs the team that has broken away from any of those groups often is the team that is better able to make and sustain a winning program long term

the evidence is clear in EVERY CASE in every stare and every conference with that set up

too many teams in the same state and in the same conference is a drag on those teams and on the conference

and as for "being in a better conference" mattering.....a conference does not make a team good or great it is the collection of teams that makes a conference better or worse and the conferences that do better consistently are the ones with programs in the conference that do not beat their pud over playing teams that suck because they are in the same state or because they are geographically close to one another

that was the case with the MWC, that was the case with the WAC and that is th case even with the AAC

all of the teams in those conferences are G5 programs that have been all over the place in terms of being in the CUSA, MAC or wherever and what set those programs apart is when the administration had a chance to make a move even if they were not sure of the setup they made the move and did not sit around worrying about a few extra miles of travel or what will happen to the game they play against the other steams in the state that usually suck and that no one cares about

While you have found some interesting antidotal evidence, for the most part, everything you mention can be explained by being in a BETTER conference or having a better coach. Look at Houston. They were sucking with Kim Helton at the helm. When Briles got there they started winning, despite the fact that 3 other Texas teams were still in the conference, When Briles left Houston for Baylor---what happened? Suddenly perrenial bottom dweller Baylor started winning---despite the other 3 Big12 schools still operating in the state.

TCU (MW) was in a better conference than the Texas CUSA schools. So, TCU had a better conference, a better coach, and better facilities (they began investing early). No real mystery as to why they performed well.

The WAC was better conference for most of its existence than the Sunbelt---which gave LaTech a boost. W Michigan sucked, but started winning when PJ Fleck got there---despite still battling the other Michigan MAC schools.

As you said yourself in your second sentence of your own post that I quoted---"different" already exists. Texas talent ALWAYS has the option of leaving the state if they simply desire "different". Winning the recruiting wars in a state is about being in a superior conference, having a superior coach, and having superior facilities---probably pretty much in that order. Being different can probably be a minor factor---but "different" can be obtained anytime anywhere by simply leaving the state---so its value is far behind the other items I mentioned,

what I am saying is not explained at all by just "being in a better conference"

TCU was not in a better conference than A&M, Baylor or Texas Tech when TCU was in the MWC yet TCU accomplished more in the MWC than any of those three programs did while TCU was in the MWC.....hell TCU accomplished more than all three of them combined for that matter

and ECU is not in a "better conference" than Wake, UNC, NC State and Duke yet ECU has had longer periods of sustained success Vs several of those programs

while ECU might not have gotten some of the rankings those programs got when they had their break out season or two overall ECU competes against the teams in a similar position as their own much better than any of the NC P5 programs do

and with Houston you are looking at ONE program out of the multiple of "4 Texas schools" in the various forms of the CUSA

and the REALITY is Houston did not have sustained success in the CUSA they had Helton, Dimel (that you left out) and then Briles

and Briles was 7-6, 3-8 and 6-6 his first 3 years I do not consider 6-6 to be a very good season especially when there is the argument that "being in this close nit regional conference and in this hot recruiting grounds" should be of some benefit to a program

and Sumlin was 8-5, 10-4 and then 5-7 then 13-1 again that is not sustaining success for a long period and more importantly what were the other three Texas teams doing at that time.....well they were all mostly sucking especially Rice and UTEP

and Levine had a 5-7 season as well so again that is not sustaining success

and while you can point to all those coaching changes you are missing the broader point this is a discussion about MULTIPLE TEAMS in the same conference from the same state or from a very close region it is not about "let me tell you what this one program did (sometimes)"

and what happened in the Big 12 when Baylor started to win well Texas started to lose a lot and Texas Tech fell off the map.....and Tech fans can pretend that captain lazy ass recruiter, no defense, no special teams and terrible clock management was "about to get them to another plateau if only Craig and Adam James had not ruined the greatest thing evAR", but the REALITY is you can look at the recruiting classes of captain terrible recruiter ESPECIALLY around the time of "da season doh" and you can see that mike was having his ass handed to him in recruiting and Texas Tech was in no way shape or form going to keep winning 9 or especially 10 or more games after "da season" and in fact they had already dropped back off to 9 wins including a spare bowl game after "da season doh"

so again as I have stated this is not about what a single individual program does at any period it is about the fact that you can NEVER look at a conference with 4 or 5 teams in the same state and see a period of time when all of those teams are playing at a high level even if the conference as a whole has many teams playing at a high level throughout a several year period

when Cal was good UCLA and Stanford were TERRIBLE.....when Stanford got good Cal was TERRIBLE and UCLA was mostly bad and USC had a major drop off

and as to the teams in the conference and a "better conference".....when you are dumb enough to choose your conference affiliation based on "we can take a Blue Bird Bus to most games" inevitably you find yourself in a conference with programs that beat their pud to the idea that they can take a Blue Bird Bus to most games and their fans should be happy with that and other teams fans should show up to help fill their stajium

so you have chosen a conference based on stupidity that never comes to fruition because no one gets excited to watch bad teams play even if they are across the street from each other and no one gets excited to travel to see their team play bad teams to to lose to other bad teams

there is a REASON that dem coogs doh moved away from CUSA and at the time of that move there was really ZERO proof it would be any better of a conference especially since it was filled with teams that had mostly been in the CUSA at one point or another

but the reality is you move away from ROT and part of the way you get ROT is to think that beating your pud over playing a bunch of schools in the same state in conference means anything to anyone and when you figure out it doesn't your only hope is that you are the program that is winning at the time and a chance to leave the others behind comes knocking

again look at north Texas state.....sure they had their bestest season in a long time in the CUSA, but it was coming right out of the Sunbelt and several of their former Sunbelt foes have had MUCH BETTER and MUCH LONGER success while still in the Sunbelt Vs the CUSA

and other non-Texas teams in the CUSA 7.324 from the Sunbelt are tearing up the conference relative to north Texas state....and of course Rice, UTSA and UTEP are still doing nothing overall with the exception of perhaps one season

those teams are not seeing huge new fan support, other teams fans are not showing up just because it is two "Texas teams in the CUSA playing" and in fact their attendance is as bad or worse than ever and their drop off after their one good season was massive

so again because ONE TEAM out of four might have some success when you compare that to similar conference mates those 4 or 5 teams in the same state will always under perform and if you compare it to other programs in that state in a different conference on their own or with a limited number of same state schools that group of 4 or 5 will under perform as a group

and when that 25% of the conference or 33% of the conference under performs consistently it drags them down badly and it drags down the conference with it

so while you point to "dem coogs won here and here" or "Baylor won here and here" you are missing the point that those periods of winning came at the expense of other Texas schools in the same conference and rarely did they come at the expense of a team like TCU that was on their own

same in Ohio, same in California, same in NC

(06-12-2017 12:05 PM)eager eagle Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 08:39 AM)HoustonCajun Wrote:  

(06-10-2017 08:55 AM)eager eagle Wrote:  Southern Miss will not be remaining in CDOA in its present form due to geography and its oveerall lack of interest now by the USM fans. Another primary reason is travel cost and it simply makes sense that sending our teams to South Alabama in Mobile or ULL in Lafayette is considerably less than trips to UTEP or the south Florida schools. Winning or losing to any teams in the mix is all the same, actually makes no difference in the overall national scheme of things.

This is strictly a business move and should work well for all until the last big "shakeup" occurs. Nothing against or for any team anywhere and here is the facts:

1. No one wants nor will there be any attempts to "kick anyone out". This will be a simple withdrawal by any team that wants to join the new mix.

2. There will be only a nominal entry fee, just enough to establish the new league and get its feet on the ground. There will be NO exit fees or advance notice for those who want to or can move on in the future.

3. The core schools joining USM could be ULL, ULM, South Ala, Troy, UAB, Ark State, La Tech and perhaps McNeese State or Rice or both. Who might win or who wont win any national championship has nothing to do with this, its travel expenses only.

NCAA basketball credits will be gone but that means very little since it is spread out so thinly under our current set up. Should be no problem in lining up bowl games, reminants of cdoa would not be competitive in that respect.

Everyone has seen that ULM has a blank OCC schedule after next couple of years, wonder if they have already decided.

Who wants aboard?

Split the SBC and CUSA into Western-based and Eastern-based conferences along the following lines:

Western-based Conference:

UTEP - NMSU
UTSA - Texas State
Rice - N. Texas
LA Tech - Ark State
Louisiana - USM
USA - Troy

Eastern-based Conference:

MT - WKU
Marshall - App State
ODU - Charlotte
GA State - GA Southern
UAB - Coastal Carolina
FIU - FAU

Remove the top six from this Western based conference and replace them with UAB, ULM, and you have what USM is looking at. McNeese State and even Southeastern La have strong baseball and basketball programs, could bring them in for everything except football. La Tech can stay with that western group if they like, would fit in well. The Eastern group looks good and can make it on their own without UAB. If you want to talk about staying with UTEP and bringing in UMSU then why even make a change?

I could do away with UTEP and NMSU as they are outliers and should be in the MWC. WKU goes to the MAC or eastern CUSA. ULM is not long for FCS, plus LA Tech would not be in a conference with them. I do not want any more FCS teams moving up. I was trying to balance the SBC and CUSA teams. However, if I want the best regional conference of those teams, I would go with:

USM - USA
Troy - UAB
Rice - Louisiana
UTSA - Texas State
N. Texas - LA Tech
Ark State - MTSU

(06-14-2017 02:33 PM)HoustonCajun Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 12:05 PM)eager eagle Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 08:39 AM)HoustonCajun Wrote:  

(06-10-2017 08:55 AM)eager eagle Wrote:  Southern Miss will not be remaining in CDOA in its present form due to geography and its oveerall lack of interest now by the USM fans. Another primary reason is travel cost and it simply makes sense that sending our teams to South Alabama in Mobile or ULL in Lafayette is considerably less than trips to UTEP or the south Florida schools. Winning or losing to any teams in the mix is all the same, actually makes no difference in the overall national scheme of things.

This is strictly a business move and should work well for all until the last big "shakeup" occurs. Nothing against or for any team anywhere and here is the facts:

1. No one wants nor will there be any attempts to "kick anyone out". This will be a simple withdrawal by any team that wants to join the new mix.

2. There will be only a nominal entry fee, just enough to establish the new league and get its feet on the ground. There will be NO exit fees or advance notice for those who want to or can move on in the future.

3. The core schools joining USM could be ULL, ULM, South Ala, Troy, UAB, Ark State, La Tech and perhaps McNeese State or Rice or both. Who might win or who wont win any national championship has nothing to do with this, its travel expenses only.

NCAA basketball credits will be gone but that means very little since it is spread out so thinly under our current set up. Should be no problem in lining up bowl games, reminants of cdoa would not be competitive in that respect.

Everyone has seen that ULM has a blank OCC schedule after next couple of years, wonder if they have already decided.

Who wants aboard?

Split the SBC and CUSA into Western-based and Eastern-based conferences along the following lines:

Western-based Conference:

UTEP - NMSU
UTSA - Texas State
Rice - N. Texas
LA Tech - Ark State
Louisiana - USM
USA - Troy

Eastern-based Conference:

MT - WKU
Marshall - App State
ODU - Charlotte
GA State - GA Southern
UAB - Coastal Carolina
FIU - FAU

Remove the top six from this Western based conference and replace them with UAB, ULM, and you have what USM is looking at. McNeese State and even Southeastern La have strong baseball and basketball programs, could bring them in for everything except football. La Tech can stay with that western group if they like, would fit in well. The Eastern group looks good and can make it on their own without UAB. If you want to talk about staying with UTEP and bringing in UMSU then why even make a change?

I could do away with UTEP and NMSU as they are outliers and should be in the MWC. WKU goes to the MAC or eastern CUSA. ULM is not long for FCS, plus LA Tech would not be in a conference with them. I do not want any more FCS teams moving up. I was trying to balance the SBC and CUSA teams. However, if I want the best regional conference of those teams, I would go with:

USM - USA
Troy - UAB
Rice - Louisiana
UTSA - Texas State
N. Texas - LA Tech
Ark State - MTSU

Only need eight, maybe nine. USM, USA, Troy, UAB, ULL, ULM, Ark State, La Tech, and then take your choice except no to Rice, UNT, UTSA (only because of distance).

(06-13-2017 07:20 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 02:27 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  See the thing posters are ignoring in all of these merge/split/re-arrange CUSA & Sun Belt threads is that the vast majority of the Sun Belt schools are happy with how realignment has turned out so far. Texas St has a bit of a gripe being the only football playing member in Texas but as for the rest we have two geographically friendly divisions with realistic travel partners that cut costs and the Conference revenues are growing each year even without TV $$$ in the mix. Given the realities I think most of our Presidents would listen to a proposal to form a new conference or re-arrange the two but If the money wasn't there why would they agree to it?

If It Doesn’t Make Dollars, It Doesn’t Make Sense!

when (I don't think it is a matter of if) Texas State starts having some bowl seasons they will crush those CUSA schools in recruiting

they are the one that offers an "alternative" just like TCU did in the MWC Vs the CSUA and just like north Texas state did in the Sunbelt Vs the CUSA when north Texas state had their longest string of "success" in the last several decades

now to be VERY CLEAR I am not saying that Texas State will become like TCU and have that LEVEL of HIGH success, but I am saying they will be much more consistent in having 6, 7 or 8 wins and making bowl games Vs any of the Sunbelt schools that might have a bowl season here and there and then drop back to 3 or 4 wins

the exception might be UTSA that can get things rolling and do the same if they keep fan support

with the clear exception of Rice Texas State has as good or better academics than any of the CUSA Texas programs, a much nicer campus and location and a much better "college" experience and all of those things are only improving

and as for the north Texas state comparison I realize their 4 (3) year run of "success" that started with making a bowl game as a 5-7 team ended quickly and turned to total crap, but that is a case of north Texas state doing what they do best which is not being prepared, not having donor support, having total crap facilities, thinking that things were on "automatic", having massively inflated expectations for the future and generally doing everything possible to not sustain that momentum and in fact doing (or not doing) many things to kill it

the idea of having other teams in your state or area in your conference as a "rival" especially when you do not really have a history or a rivalry with them is extremely overrated and the downsides to it are as great or greater than the upsides especially when most of those teams are not good and have little desire to truly have success and they are very similar in terms of academics and other factors

you really end up feeding on each other and eating each other and dragging each other down as recruits just decide to go elsewhere

North Texas St did have a nice run at the start of the Belch. In fact, in the Belch's first year, North Texas St won the Belch and despite having a losing record represented the Belch on the field of battle in the New Orleans Bowl vs Colorado St--a low pick from the MWC. North Texas St fought hard, but ultimately fell short and finished with a 5-7 record. I believe North Texas St has gone to a couple of bowls with losing records.

(06-14-2017 05:08 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  where your argument does not work is the idea that "these schools are going to get their 25 players each"

players have options and better players have better options recruits are not locked into "go to a Texas school" they can go to any school anywhere if they have the grades and skills

this is why the SWC fell apart because the SWC after Arkansas left offered two things to recruits and that was IT

the SWC offered the chance to go to a private school in Texas (choice of 4) with Rice being a better academically than SMU, Baylor or TCU

and the SWC offered a chance to go to a relatively large public school in Texas with A&M and UT being better than the other two choices and really even back then with A&M pretty much being a 90 haul ass back home to Houston and only Texas Tech not being in a relatively large city or very very close to a large city (A&M)

those were the two choices that recruits had

if you look at the SWC with Arkansas there is a reason that Arkansas was always able to be successful and it was because they had a really good lock on in state recruits from Arkansas and they offered a real alternative to the other 8 programs in the SWC

if you look at an 8 team Big 8 Vs an 8 team SWC even with the Big 8 having programs from low population states like Kansas and Oklahoma (especially back then) they were still able to come into Texas and recruit hard especially OU, Nebraska and at the time Colorado

because they offered something different to recruits

and the Big 8 consistently year in and year out had more ranked teams than the SWC

when you have too many teams in the same area going after the same recruits you inevitably have a sifting of those teams and it becomes near impossible for the lower level teams to get back to winning consistently once they sift to the bottom and as those lower level teams sift to the bottom and stay there it drags down the rest of the conference with them

again you can look at the MAC, you can look at the 4 teams in the PAC 12 from California and you can look at the 4 teams from NC in the ACC

and you can compare those ACC and PAC 12 teams to ECU, SDSU, Fresno and it is just as easy if not easier for those G5 programs to win more consistently and for longer periods of time than it is for most of the same teams in the ACC or the PAC 12

none of the four NC teams in the ACC are ever major contenders for anything especially in a consistent basis......only USC is consistently good in the PAC 12....UCLA makes A&M look like over achievers, Cal sucks consistently and Stanford has long periods of being horrible......Stanford had a period of 31 seasons where they had 8 winning seasons out of 31 and that was not all that long ago

you either offer the same to recruits or you offer something different....UTSA, north Texas state and UTEP all offer exactly the same to recruits only Rice offers something different

Texas State offers something different

when the CUSA had Houston, Rice, SMU and UTEP that was 33% of the conference for 8 years (2005 to 2012)

not only that all 4 of those teams were in the same division so they were 67% of that division

those 4 teams played in the CCG four times in those 8 seasons so they played in that game 50% of the time.....so 67% of the teams in a division over 8 years only made a CCG 50% of the time.....and that is in "Texas with all that recruiting and all those markets"

on the other hand Tulsa in Oklahoma with a ton fewer recruits and OU and OkState and Arkansas right there as well went to the CCG the same number of times 4

and those 4 Texas teams that were 67% of that conference division over 8 seasons and that only went to the CCG 50% of the time......well those teams managed to win a CCG one time.......which is one time than the two times Tulsa won it

on the other half of the conference ECU that recruits against 4 ACC programs in state managed to make the CCG two times and won it both times.....so ECU from a smaller state with the same number of P5 programs to recruit against in state at that time won the conference one more time (two total) than 4 Texas teams won the conference in that same period of time and went to a CCG half as many times as a single team Vs 4 teams

USM that recruits against two other SEC programs in state managed to make the CCG two times and won it one time so USM as a single school made the CCG half as many times as 4 Texas teams and won it the same number of times as 4 Texas teams

UCF that recruits against Miami, Florida and FSU (so 3 P5 programs) and that was very new to D1-A football at that time went to the CCG 4 times in those 8 years and they won it two times

so a single team from Florida went to the CCG the same number of times in 8 years as 4 Texas teams did....and they won it one more time (2x) the number of times those 4 Texas teams did

so what that tells you is that the Texas teams were "getting their 25 recruits", but they were getting a lot of that 25 that sucked

and it was not because of P5 competition to recruit against because ECU faces the same exact issue in state and UCF faces nearly the same issue in state and USM, ECU and UCF face every other major ACC and SEC program recruiting heavily in their area as well along with the Big 10 and Big East

and the next excuse will be well "SMU just sucked at that time and death penalty" or "Rice just did not care" and "UTEP was never that good' ect

and yea part of the reason for that is because the fans and the ADs and the administrations of those programs sat around and pulled their puds about how exciting it was to get their asses kicked in a conference with 3 other Texas teams

hell at least UTEP managed to win the WAC one time

look at LaTech they managed to win the WAC 2 times and they have played in the CUSA CCG two times in three seasons

so LaTech in three seasons in the CUSA has played in the CCG one more time than Rice has in 11 seasons while Rice was "with all those Texas teams" for 11 seasons.....and not surprisingly Rice went and won it the year after SMU and dem coogs doh left the conference and UTEP was totally sucking and north Texas state brought their streak of suck from the Sun Belt and of course UTSA was barely starting football...so hell Rice was basically playing against one other program to win their half of the CUSA that year....and now they suck again with 3 other Texas teams.....that all suck

there is a reason that LaTech broke away from ULM and Louisiana it was to OFFER SOMETHING DIFFERENT

Louisiana has been in D1-A since 1978 and ULM since 1994

if you only go from 1994 for La Tech they have been to 6 bowl games and won 4

ULM has been to one and lost it

Louisiana has been to five and they are 4-1 in those 5 games

so La Tech that purposefully has avoided being in "a tight nit conference with all those other Louisiana schools" has been to the same number of bowl games as those other Louisiana schools and has the same number of bowl wins as those other Louisiana schools if you go from 1994 forward

and that with with LaTech in the WAC for a number of years

and Louisiana has a much nicer stajium than LaTech, they have great fan support and an good budget so it is not like Louisiana is ULM and Louisiana is a good university with a number of the same types of degree offerings

even in the MAC with 5 Ohio teams and 19 years of a CCG at least they split the teams in different divisions, but those 5 teams (basically about 35% of the conference because of additions and subtractions) have played in the CCG 15 times which is a bit more than their % of the conference,

so with 38 opportunities to play in the CCG (because they have teams in both divisions) and they have barely managed to keep pace with playing in the CCG relative to their % of teams in the conference and again they are in football crazy OHIO with only tOSU as a P5 team and for a while Cincy in the BE

hell Marshall that was only in the conference for 8 years managed to play in the CCG 6 times and NIU has played in it 7 times....Vs 15 times for FIVE teams all pulling their pud together in the same state in the same conference

hell Marshall won the conference and CCG 5 times in that short period of time while those 5 Ohio teams still in the MAC have won the conference and the CCG.....FIVE TIMES TOTAL

NIU a singl2 team has won the whole thing 3 times and they are 3-4......Vs the 5 Ohio teams that have won it all a total of FIVE TIMES

and Toledo, Miami and Ohio are responsible for the bulk of those appearances which gets back to the idea of the "sifting" of a conference and especially too many teams in a conference from the same state

the evidence is just very clear when you look at it

you can look at the records year in and year out it is season after season of 3 of those 5 teams having losing records and often TERRIBLE records and in some cases is it 3 of them having a losing record and the two with winning records still only winning 6 or 7 games

just like in the Big 12 with 4 Texas teams there is rarely if ever a time when all 4 are good and rarely a time of ever that more than 2 are good

you see the same thing in the PAC 12 with the California teams.....you see the same thing in the ACC with the four NC teams

no matter how many good teams the conference has overall it is almost never going to be all 4 of those teams in the same state that are the ones that are all good and rarely will it be more than 2 and often is is really only one that is good.....much more frequently than it is 3 that are good to really good

same with the CUSA and flavor of the CUSA....the Texas teams are never as a group out performing the conference or really even keeping up with the conference performance

it is simply a drag on the conference and it is just too easy for ADs to get complacent because they think that fans will settle for seeing two teams that suck from the same state play each other or they will settle for another ass beating most seasons from a team in the same state (and usually the same one that has sifted to the top most frequently)

and when you look at the opposite teams from states with a large number of P5 programs and or G5 programs the team that has broken away from any of those groups often is the team that is better able to make and sustain a winning program long term

the evidence is clear in EVERY CASE in every stare and every conference with that set up

too many teams in the same state and in the same conference is a drag on those teams and on the conference

and as for "being in a better conference" mattering.....a conference does not make a team good or great it is the collection of teams that makes a conference better or worse and the conferences that do better consistently are the ones with programs in the conference that do not beat their pud over playing teams that suck because they are in the same state or because they are geographically close to one another

that was the case with the MWC, that was the case with the WAC and that is th case even with the AAC

all of the teams in those conferences are G5 programs that have been all over the place in terms of being in the CUSA, MAC or wherever and what set those programs apart is when the administration had a chance to make a move even if they were not sure of the setup they made the move and did not sit around worrying about a few extra miles of travel or what will happen to the game they play against the other steams in the state that usually suck and that no one cares about

But isn't the Big 12 pulling its pud Todge? 4 Texas teams pulling their pud playing each other, 2 Oklahoma schools pulling their puds playing each other and 2 Kansas schools pulling their puds playing each other. You got Iowa st pulling their puds out there on their island and a very poor academic school pulling their puds about 3,000 miles away from the pud pullers in the ugliest place on earth in Lubbock. A poor academic school, the pokes, pulling their pud just north of Norman and a school east of tumbleweed Tech-Iraq in whacko that makes Louisville look like Liberty with their scandals and wat not. Dem Coogs doh are in a conference with Connecticut which makes the AAC look better than the Big 12 by this pud pulling logic.

(06-14-2017 10:34 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  what I am saying is not explained at all by just "being in a better conference"

TCU was not in a better conference than A&M, Baylor or Texas Tech when TCU was in the MWC yet TCU accomplished more in the MWC than any of those three programs did while TCU was in the MWC.....hell TCU accomplished more than all three of them combined for that matter

and ECU is not in a "better conference" than Wake, UNC, NC State and Duke yet ECU has had longer periods of sustained success Vs several of those programs

while ECU might not have gotten some of the rankings those programs got when they had their break out season or two overall ECU competes against the teams in a similar position as their own much better than any of the NC P5 programs do

and with Houston you are looking at ONE program out of the multiple of "4 Texas schools" in the various forms of the CUSA

and the REALITY is Houston did not have sustained success in the CUSA they had Helton, Dimel (that you left out) and then Briles

and Briles was 7-6, 3-8 and 6-6 his first 3 years I do not consider 6-6 to be a very good season especially when there is the argument that "being in this close nit regional conference and in this hot recruiting grounds" should be of some benefit to a program

and Sumlin was 8-5, 10-4 and then 5-7 then 13-1 again that is not sustaining success for a long period and more importantly what were the other three Texas teams doing at that time.....well they were all mostly sucking especially Rice and UTEP

and Levine had a 5-7 season as well so again that is not sustaining success

and while you can point to all those coaching changes you are missing the broader point this is a discussion about MULTIPLE TEAMS in the same conference from the same state or from a very close region it is not about "let me tell you what this one program did (sometimes)"

and what happened in the Big 12 when Baylor started to win well Texas started to lose a lot and Texas Tech fell off the map.....and Tech fans can pretend that captain lazy ass recruiter, no defense, no special teams and terrible clock management was "about to get them to another plateau if only Craig and Adam James had not ruined the greatest thing evAR", but the REALITY is you can look at the recruiting classes of captain terrible recruiter ESPECIALLY around the time of "da season doh" and you can see that mike was having his ass handed to him in recruiting and Texas Tech was in no way shape or form going to keep winning 9 or especially 10 or more games after "da season" and in fact they had already dropped back off to 9 wins including a spare bowl game after "da season doh"

so again as I have stated this is not about what a single individual program does at any period it is about the fact that you can NEVER look at a conference with 4 or 5 teams in the same state and see a period of time when all of those teams are playing at a high level even if the conference as a whole has many teams playing at a high level throughout a several year period

when Cal was good UCLA and Stanford were TERRIBLE.....when Stanford got good Cal was TERRIBLE and UCLA was mostly bad and USC had a major drop off

and as to the teams in the conference and a "better conference".....when you are dumb enough to choose your conference affiliation based on "we can take a Blue Bird Bus to most games" inevitably you find yourself in a conference with programs that beat their pud to the idea that they can take a Blue Bird Bus to most games and their fans should be happy with that and other teams fans should show up to help fill their stajium

so you have chosen a conference based on stupidity that never comes to fruition because no one gets excited to watch bad teams play even if they are across the street from each other and no one gets excited to travel to see their team play bad teams to to lose to other bad teams

there is a REASON that dem coogs doh moved away from CUSA and at the time of that move there was really ZERO proof it would be any better of a conference especially since it was filled with teams that had mostly been in the CUSA at one point or another

but the reality is you move away from ROT and part of the way you get ROT is to think that beating your pud over playing a bunch of schools in the same state in conference means anything to anyone and when you figure out it doesn't your only hope is that you are the program that is winning at the time and a chance to leave the others behind comes knocking

again look at north Texas state.....sure they had their bestest season in a long time in the CUSA, but it was coming right out of the Sunbelt and several of their former Sunbelt foes have had MUCH BETTER and MUCH LONGER success while still in the Sunbelt Vs the CUSA

and other non-Texas teams in the CUSA 7.324 from the Sunbelt are tearing up the conference relative to north Texas state....and of course Rice, UTSA and UTEP are still doing nothing overall with the exception of perhaps one season

those teams are not seeing huge new fan support, other teams fans are not showing up just because it is two "Texas teams in the CUSA playing" and in fact their attendance is as bad or worse than ever and their drop off after their one good season was massive

so again because ONE TEAM out of four might have some success when you compare that to similar conference mates those 4 or 5 teams in the same state will always under perform and if you compare it to other programs in that state in a different conference on their own or with a limited number of same state schools that group of 4 or 5 will under perform as a group

and when that 25% of the conference or 33% of the conference under performs consistently it drags them down badly and it drags down the conference with it

so while you point to "dem coogs won here and here" or "Baylor won here and here" you are missing the point that those periods of winning came at the expense of other Texas schools in the same conference and rarely did they come at the expense of a team like TCU that was on their own

same in Ohio, same in California, same in NC

Jesus. This response is all over the road, crossed the median, bounced over the curb and glanced off several buildings.

Just to address one of your "examples". Tech didnt suck because Texas got better. Tech sucked because they fired the only coach that had done anything there in a decade because he was mean to a primadonna player. To this day I have no idea what they were thinking.

Here is where I'll say I think you have a point. You can "over do" the bus league concept. You want some rivals and typically the best rivals are schools close enough that they have some alum representation near your school. If your fans might work with a few guys from the other school---its more likely you might have the makings of a locational rivalry.

By the same token, you dont want then too close as they would start to impinge on your local recruiting area (which is what your point is). So, to me, you clearly wouldn't want all 7 Texas G5 teams in the same conference because, while you might have some good rivalries and low travel expenses, you would have A LOT of overlap their primary recruiting areas.

So, for grins, lets just say every G5 in Texas started football in 2015--so they are all basically just getting started and everyone is essentially even. You could easily have SMU, Houston, and say Texas St in the same league and probably be just fine. They each have a couple hundred miles between them and there is enough overlap of alums in one anothers locations that you could develop rivalries. Not to close, but not too far either. Throw in similar surrounding schools like Tulsa, Ark St, Latech, ULL (or Tulane), Memphis, and S Miss. Thats all you need.

Thats 8-9 schools with about the right spacing that are close enough where there might be fan overlap---but far enough to give each school a solid recruiting area. By the way, thats another place where we agree. A G5 conference doesnt need 12 teams. I'd argue 8 to 10 is the best---and 8 might be optimum since it gives you an extra OOC game.

(06-14-2017 08:03 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  North Texas St did have a nice run at the start of the Belch. In fact, in the Belch's first year, North Texas St won the Belch and despite having a losing record represented the Belch on the field of battle in the New Orleans Bowl vs Colorado St--a low pick from the MWC. North Texas St fought hard, but ultimately fell short and finished with a 5-7 record. I believe North Texas St has gone to a couple of bowls with losing records.

yes exactly north Texas state had their best run of sustained (be it brief) success since moving up to D1-A again while playing as the lone Texas team in the Sunbelt when there was the CUSA with multiple Texas teams also in existence

and they did go to the first bowl (first ever New Orleans Bowl) with a 5-7 record and I think the rules were looked at and because they "won the conference" they went and then the rules were changed until again recently the rules were changed when there became way too many bowl games

they had horrible facilities, horrible fan support and a horrible budget and played "run" football with DD as coach

and yet in spite of all of that and in spite of their fans crying endlessly to be in the CUSA and crying that "SMU was keeping them out" they still had their best run of success to date while in the Sunbelt

and just last year they went to the dallas bowl with a 5-7 record but again they still (in spite of being in the CUSA and haveing a much better budget and facilities) have not had a run in CUSA like they did in the Sunbelt and most likely they will not for a long time

(06-14-2017 08:26 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  But isn't the Big 12 pulling its pud Todge? 4 Texas teams pulling their pud playing each other, 2 Oklahoma schools pulling their puds playing each other and 2 Kansas schools pulling their puds playing each other. You got Iowa st pulling their puds out there on their island and a very poor academic school pulling their puds about 3,000 miles away from the pud pullers in the ugliest place on earth in Lubbock. A poor academic school, the pokes, pulling their pud just north of Norman and a school east of tumbleweed Tech-Iraq in whacko that makes Louisville look like Liberty with their scandals and wat not. Dem Coogs doh are in a conference with Connecticut which makes the AAC look better than the Big 12 by this pud pulling logic.

yes it would have been much better long term for the Big 12 to have only 3 Texas teams, but TCU was the CLEAR favorite to be in the Big 12 and clearly the best team to add so TCU was added

and the Big 12 NEEDED to have 10 schools so staying at 9 was not an option

and most people say they "passed" on Louisville, but Louisville was NOT going to leave the BE for the Big 12 immediately like WVU would and thus they were not an option IMMEDIATELY to get the Big 12 back to the NEEDED 10 teams for their new Fox tier 2 contract

and you are missing the point again this is not a discussion about was getting into the Big 12 better for TCU yes it was, but was that better for the conference overall long term if there had been other options available like BYU not trying to set their own terms and play "hard ball" or Louisville being ready to come to the Big 12 immediately instead of waiting a year or two to meet their BE contract obligations

and would dem coogs doh fans be excited and feel it was better to be a 5th school in Texas in the Big 12....of course they would, but that would be terrible for the conference long term and most likely terrible for them long term just like when they got in the SWC and had a few winning seasons before deciding that being in the SWC and playing all those other Texas schools was good enough and they stopped investing in facilities, fan support dropped and they started to have long streaks of horrible seasons and never recovered from that

and while I am sure they will all give us great stories of how that would not happen again the point is that it still drags the conference down overall and hurts the conference overall

just like it hurt the SWC when you compare them to the Big 8 even with the Big 8 having all those programs you mentioned in a failed analogy that misses the whole point of the discussion

which the point of the discussion is that when you choose your conference mates based on distance and geography you get all excited about playing a bunch of schools right in your state or in a very confined area you are going to inevitably end up with programs that are not going to value winning Vs just being glad to be in a conference with all their Blue Bird bus ride friends and once that sets in it is impossible to climb out of for the conference even if all those teams doing that change leadership and start making investments

because it drags down your conference overall and because of so much of "the same" recruits simply go elsewhere.....and even if you "get your 25" you get your 25 that totally suck and even if you are the best of the worst you are still with the worst and YOUR program suffers for that and if you are smart you look to GTFO.....if you can

so the better idea is to get in a conference that does not lend itself to being in that situation where a large group of recruits from the same state can look at your conference and say "no thanks going elsewhere don't care about playing other bad teams in the same state and don't care if it is s Blue Bird bus ride away want to fly on a G6 anyway"

(06-14-2017 09:07 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Jesus. This response is all over the road, crossed the median, bounced over the curb and glanced off several buildings.

Just to address one of your "examples". Tech didnt suck because Texas got better. Tech sucked because they fired the only coach that had done anything there in a decade because he was mean to a primadonna player. To this day I have no idea what they were thinking.

Here is where I'll say I think you have a point. You can "over do" the bus league concept. You want some rivals and typically the best rivals are schools close enough that they have some alum representation near your school. If your fans might work with a few guys from the other school---its more likely you might have the makings of a locational rivalry.

By the same token, you dont want then too close as they would start to impinge on your local recruiting area (which is what your point is). So, to me, you clearly wouldn't want all 7 Texas G5 teams in the same conference because, while you might have some good rivalries and low travel expenses, you would have A LOT of overlap their primary recruiting areas.

So, for grins, lets just say every G5 in Texas started football in 2015--so they are all basically just getting started and everyone is essentially even. You could easily have SMU, Houston, and say Texas St in the same league and probably be just fine. They each have a couple hundred miles between them and there is enough overlap of alums in one anothers locations that you could develop rivalries. Not to close, but not too far either. Throw in similar surrounding schools like Tulsa, Ark St, Latech, ULL (or Tulane), Memphis, and S Miss. Thats all you need.

Thats 8-9 schools with about the right spacing that are close enough where there might be fan overlap---but far enough to give each school a solid recruiting area. By the way, thats another place where we agree. A G5 conference doesnt need 12 teams. I'd argue 8 to 10 is the best---and 8 might be optimum since it gives you an extra OOC game.

it was not Texas Tech sucking because Texas got better Texas was having their best run in history at the same time as Tech had captain lazy recruiter, no defense, no clock management, no special teams

Baylor and A&M were totally sucking at that time though which again is the point 4 or more teams in the same state is detrimental to the conference

it was Baylor that improved and Tech started to suck and Texas started to suck as well

and Texas had not yet fired Mack Brown

and Tech did not fire mike because they wanted to they fired him because he did everything possible to not save his job even though he had every opportunity to do so and he refused and backed Tech into a coned where they had no other choice but to fire him

and it had nothing to do with the actual treatment of Adam James it had to do with the fact that mike would not agree to the changes needed to prevent other similar allegations in the future

and anyone that knows the truth and that is not a mike humper pirate idiot understands that mike wanted out of their badly and mike knew that he was about to start getting his ass handed to him and that he had been recruiting terribly even with his run of better seasons and he knew it was all about to fall apart which is why he took the opportunity to make a bad power play that failed and then had to get himself fired to try and save face

he knew that Briles was going to out work him and out coach him and especially out recruit him

but again the point is not that a particular ream or even a couple of teams out of a group of 4 or more in the same state can have a run of success the point is that they will never all perform at a level equal to the overall potential of the conference especially if the conference was more spread out geographically as shown by years of SWC and Big 8 comparisons where the Big 8 had no reason to be performing better year in and year out as a conference with the same number of teams Vs the SWC and even when the SWC had Arkansas which was one additional team and the only team outside of Texas the Big 8 as a conference still performed better generally when it came to number of ranked teams year in and year out.....even if Arkansas was always doing well in the SWC

because 8 other teams all in Texas was a drag on the SWC and players went elsewhere like the Big 8

this is not a discussion about MIGHT this be better for a single team for a while or could this single team come to this conference and do OK for a while

this is a discussion about the fact that when you get all those teams in the same state in the same conference the eventual reality will be that it will drag the conference down and at some point those that can make a move to get away from those other Texas (or what ever other state with 4 or more) teams and if they cannot make a move it will hurt them in the long run as well even if they continue to win because they will be winning one of the worst conferences there is and they will not get much credit for those wins and most of those wins will come in conference and their OOC record will suffer as will bowl wins

so yes TCU should be happy as hell to be in the Big 12, but if the Big 12 does not wake up and play fewer conference games TCU may well find themselves on the outside looking in again as many threads on this forum predict...because that is one way to lessen the impact of having too many teams in the same conference from the same state

north Texas state fans were happy as hell to be in the CUSA, but just a couple of years in they had a horrible season and got drilled by a D1-AA team in one of the worst losses by a D1-A team to a D1-AA team in history

and teams that have no real reason to be consistently better than north Texas state like Louisiana and stAte still in the Sunbelt are doing just fine

as is D1-AA move up Appy State in NC where they have ECU and the ACC schools to recruit against while they play in the Sunbelt

so getting into the CUSA from the Sunbelt has not been what they thought it would be even with new (and a **** ton better) facilities and budget Vs their better years in the Sunbelt

and Rice and UTEP are all doing terrible as well with only UTSA doing OK.....and as soon as UTSA gets a chance (if they get one) if they are smart they will be GONE to the MWC or somewhere else

if not the the CUSA will probably have one dominant Texas team for a long run and several others fighting to the the one that is 6-6 instead of 3-9

(06-14-2017 08:03 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 07:20 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 02:27 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  See the thing posters are ignoring in all of these merge/split/re-arrange CUSA & Sun Belt threads is that the vast majority of the Sun Belt schools are happy with how realignment has turned out so far. Texas St has a bit of a gripe being the only football playing member in Texas but as for the rest we have two geographically friendly divisions with realistic travel partners that cut costs and the Conference revenues are growing each year even without TV $$$ in the mix. Given the realities I think most of our Presidents would listen to a proposal to form a new conference or re-arrange the two but If the money wasn't there why would they agree to it?

If It Doesn’t Make Dollars, It Doesn’t Make Sense!

when (I don't think it is a matter of if) Texas State starts having some bowl seasons they will crush those CUSA schools in recruiting

they are the one that offers an "alternative" just like TCU did in the MWC Vs the CSUA and just like north Texas state did in the Sunbelt Vs the CUSA when north Texas state had their longest string of "success" in the last several decades

now to be VERY CLEAR I am not saying that Texas State will become like TCU and have that LEVEL of HIGH success, but I am saying they will be much more consistent in having 6, 7 or 8 wins and making bowl games Vs any of the Sunbelt schools that might have a bowl season here and there and then drop back to 3 or 4 wins

the exception might be UTSA that can get things rolling and do the same if they keep fan support

with the clear exception of Rice Texas State has as good or better academics than any of the CUSA Texas programs, a much nicer campus and location and a much better "college" experience and all of those things are only improving

and as for the north Texas state comparison I realize their 4 (3) year run of "success" that started with making a bowl game as a 5-7 team ended quickly and turned to total crap, but that is a case of north Texas state doing what they do best which is not being prepared, not having donor support, having total crap facilities, thinking that things were on "automatic", having massively inflated expectations for the future and generally doing everything possible to not sustain that momentum and in fact doing (or not doing) many things to kill it

the idea of having other teams in your state or area in your conference as a "rival" especially when you do not really have a history or a rivalry with them is extremely overrated and the downsides to it are as great or greater than the upsides especially when most of those teams are not good and have little desire to truly have success and they are very similar in terms of academics and other factors

you really end up feeding on each other and eating each other and dragging each other down as recruits just decide to go elsewhere

North Texas St did have a nice run at the start of the Belch. In fact, in the Belch's first year, North Texas St won the Belch and despite having a losing record represented the Belch on the field of battle in the New Orleans Bowl vs Colorado St--a low pick from the MWC. North Texas St fought hard, but ultimately fell short and finished with a 5-7 record. I believe North Texas St has gone to a couple of bowls with losing records.

Most recently representing CUSA.

We've gone so long without a significant number of independents that people don't understand the value.

Sun Belt formed as a mishmash of independents, Big West, and FCS move ups.

Stability did wonders for most of the schools.

UNT didn't get pushed the early years of the Sun Belt but the stability changed things. They dropped 8 in a row to AState. They got passed by Troy (newer to FBS than UNT), languished while newbies to FBS took shares of the title.

UNT put together four of the best seasons in the history of the school and couldn't get off their duff to do anything about a horribly awful stadium while schools like UL Lafayette, Troy, and AState soon as they had some success went to the donors pushing for improvements.