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Big West Rejects UC San Diego
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #261
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
California kids are heading out of state because of the lack of football teams for school spirit. Football is very popular thanks to ESPN. Look where the enrollment be for all these schools are at? That is why there are so many students want football to be at the schools without football.

Fullerton State
Long Beach State
Northridge State
Santa Clara
Cal.-Irvine
Cal. San Diego
CSU-San Bernardino
Sonoma State
Cal Poly-Pomona
Cal.-Riverside
Chico State
Sonoma State

Yeah, if the ADs and school Presidents are smart enough in California? There seems to be a lot of support from the kids that want football which in turn could bring more kids to enroll.
05-06-2017 02:33 AM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #262
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-06-2017 02:33 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  California kids are heading out of state because of the lack of football teams for school spirit. Football is very popular thanks to ESPN. Look where the enrollment be for all these schools are at? That is why there are so many students want football to be at the schools without football.

Fullerton State
Long Beach State
Northridge State
Santa Clara
Cal.-Irvine
Cal. San Diego
CSU-San Bernardino
Sonoma State
Cal Poly-Pomona
Cal.-Riverside
Chico State
Sonoma State

Yeah, if the ADs and school Presidents are smart enough in California? There seems to be a lot of support from the kids that want football which in turn could bring more kids to enroll.

You need to understand the impact of the Cal Now consent decree for Cal States. The consent decree mandates participants in sports equal to the percentage of the gender in the school. So if a school is 60% female, which most are, then every 4 additional male athletes means 6 more female athletes. As an example when Margie Wright cut 3 scholarship softball athletes she didn't like the baseball program had to cut 3 male walk ons. Adding 80 football players means adding 120 female athletes which most schools can't afford.
05-06-2017 02:45 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #263
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-06-2017 12:43 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  It's a situation that is noticed and seen by declining interest in PAC-12 sports.

(05-06-2017 01:40 AM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  If the Pac-12 has become inaccessible and if people think we're all a bunch of out of touch eggheads

I think you should be careful to discriminate between the situation in CA, and the rest of the PAC states. I don't think that situation is happening in WA, OR, or AZ, for example. They have two big public flagships each, which I'm guessing admit most in-state kids with reasonable grades that want to go.


If there is a declining interest in California PAC teams, it probably has more to do with winning than with admissions.
05-06-2017 09:07 AM
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Post: #264
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-06-2017 12:43 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 07:10 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 06:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 05:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

So as a portion of their population, fewer Californians are educated at those 6 campuses than any other state with a school on the top-25 list except Texas (which also has an inadequate system) and Virginia (because William & Mary is a tiny school and UVA is not on that list of top-25 publics for some reason).

Where are you getting your figures? Because they seem to be demonstrably false. Even going by the limitation of only counting schools in the top 25 of public universities let's compare CA and FL.

CA's 6 top-25 campuses have a combined 200,545 students. CA's population is 39.14 million. That's 0.00512 spots per CA resident.

FL's lone top-25 campus has 52,519 students. FL's population is 20.27 million. That's 0.00259 spots per FL resident.

What about Illinois?
IL's lone top-25 campus has 44,087 students. IL's population is 12.86 million. That's 0.00343 spots per IL resident.

What about New York? There are no top-25 public schools there at all to serve its 19.8 million people.

And if we relax the top-25 requirement why should CA limit itself to the students in the UC system? Should it not get credit for the 478,000 in the CSU system or the 2.4 million students in the CA community colleges system?

Seriously, where are you getting your numbers?

The issue is in most other states, students have an option if you want to attend a college with a P5 team. CA does not. It's not like in the 1980's when a very good student could go to UCLA. Now those students have a low chance of getting in. The 4 CA PAC-12 schools are among the top hardest schools in America to matriculate to. That includes the Ivy leagues.

In my moms and my generation almost all either attended or were accepted by a CA PAC-12 school. In my kids generation, only 1 will attend a PAC-12 school. It's a situation that is noticed and seen by declining interest in PAC-12 sports.

You've switched to a different issue. Its the UC and Cal St. schools dropping football. Nobody has so many public options for a top flight academic university.
05-06-2017 03:52 PM
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Sactowndog Offline
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Post: #265
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-06-2017 03:52 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-06-2017 12:43 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 07:10 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 06:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 05:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  Well California does have 200,000 students on 6 campuses that are in the top 100 schools in the world. And Riverside and Santa Cruz are not that far below. There are only 25 US public schools in the top 100 in the world and no other state has more than 2 (Texas and Pennsylvania are the only ones with 2).

So as a portion of their population, fewer Californians are educated at those 6 campuses than any other state with a school on the top-25 list except Texas (which also has an inadequate system) and Virginia (because William & Mary is a tiny school and UVA is not on that list of top-25 publics for some reason).

Where are you getting your figures? Because they seem to be demonstrably false. Even going by the limitation of only counting schools in the top 25 of public universities let's compare CA and FL.

CA's 6 top-25 campuses have a combined 200,545 students. CA's population is 39.14 million. That's 0.00512 spots per CA resident.

FL's lone top-25 campus has 52,519 students. FL's population is 20.27 million. That's 0.00259 spots per FL resident.

What about Illinois?
IL's lone top-25 campus has 44,087 students. IL's population is 12.86 million. That's 0.00343 spots per IL resident.

What about New York? There are no top-25 public schools there at all to serve its 19.8 million people.

And if we relax the top-25 requirement why should CA limit itself to the students in the UC system? Should it not get credit for the 478,000 in the CSU system or the 2.4 million students in the CA community colleges system?

Seriously, where are you getting your numbers?

The issue is in most other states, students have an option if you want to attend a college with a P5 team. CA does not. It's not like in the 1980's when a very good student could go to UCLA. Now those students have a low chance of getting in. The 4 CA PAC-12 schools are among the top hardest schools in America to matriculate to. That includes the Ivy leagues.

In my moms and my generation almost all either attended or were accepted by a CA PAC-12 school. In my kids generation, only 1 will attend a PAC-12 school. It's a situation that is noticed and seen by declining interest in PAC-12 sports.

You've switched to a different issue. Its the UC and Cal St. schools dropping football. Nobody has so many public options for a top flight academic university.

Absolutely if they can get in. Actually if they can get in there they likely have other great undergraduate "academic options". Pomona College and Claremont College, Harvey Mudd and Scripps are all in the top 25 undergraduate liberal arts schools. Cal Tech is a top 25 National University. If you are an elite student you have tons of academic options. If you want a big school spirit type of school not so much.
05-06-2017 08:25 PM
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GiveEmTheAxe Offline
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Post: #266
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
So if, for some strange reason, we wanted each Pac-12 state to offer the option of cheering for a P5 school to the same kind of student, at the margin, what would that look like? Maybe dropping Wazzu, Oregon State and ASU and replacing them with UCSD, UCSB and UC Davis? Maybe go for 16 with UCI, UBC, Texas and Rice? That would put us all at roughly the same marginal cut off point, no?

Then again I think the point about crowding out students from the P5 experience wasn't about uniformity across states as much as it was about extending access within the state. To that end I think the only thing that can happen is for the MWC to get in the conversation as the best G5 and the best candidate to claim the title of P6. I think it would be pretty awesome if the MWC with SJSU, Fresno State, SDSU and maybe a fourth CSU could be seen as a power conference "people's choice" of sorts.
05-06-2017 11:14 PM
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Post: #267
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
I think that for some reason, DavidSt thinks that the main purpose of a university is to have football, instead of it's actual main purpose which is to provide an education.
05-07-2017 01:58 AM
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Post: #268
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-06-2017 11:14 PM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  So if, for some strange reason, we wanted each Pac-12 state to offer the option of cheering for a P5 school to the same kind of student, at the margin, what would that look like? Maybe dropping Wazzu, Oregon State and ASU and replacing them with UCSD, UCSB and UC Davis? Maybe go for 16 with UCI, UBC, Texas and Rice? That would put us all at roughly the same marginal cut off point, no?

Then again I think the point about crowding out students from the P5 experience wasn't about uniformity across states as much as it was about extending access within the state. To that end I think the only thing that can happen is for the MWC to get in the conversation as the best G5 and the best candidate to claim the title of P6. I think it would be pretty awesome if the MWC with SJSU, Fresno State, SDSU and maybe a fourth CSU could be seen as a power conference "people's choice" of sorts.

Yeah I don't think the PAC-12 wants to extend the problem they have in CA to Washington, Oregon and Arizona. But adding the MWC as a "people's choice" and cross scheduling would be good for both schools.

The other option is two divisions within the PAC -12.

Elitists: Cal, Oregon, Washington, UCLA, SC, Stanford, Arizona, Colorado, Utah

Common: WSU, Oregon State, Arizona State, Fresno State, San Diego State, Colorado State, Boise State, UNLV, BYU/Utah State

Play 4 home and 4 away in division with one permenant cross over game the first 9 weeks of the season. Winner of cross over's gets to host conference championship. I would put the cross over game on PAC-12 network to drive adoption.

Cross over:
Oregon/ Oregon State
Washington/ Washington State
Arizona/ Arizona State
Colorado/ Colorado State
Utah/ BYU/Utah State
Cal/ Fresno State
UCLA/ San Diego State
Stanford/ Boise State
USC/ UNLV.
05-07-2017 08:55 AM
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Post: #269
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah likely snub their noses at their respective state's land-grant public flagship university (OSU, WSU, AZ St, CO St, and UT St, respectively), but you can't possibly be serious in putting them in the same category of admissions elitism as Cal, Stanford, and UCLA (not sure on USC, but probably closer to those than not). Especially, I would think, Oregon, Arizona, and Utah. And Washington and Colorado only maybe a bit more than those others.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 10:23 AM by MplsBison.)
05-07-2017 10:22 AM
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RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-07-2017 10:22 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah likely snub their noses at their respective state's land-grant public flagship university (OSU, WSU, AZ St, CO St, and UT St, respectively), but you can't possibly be serious in putting them in the same category of admissions elitism as Cal, Stanford, and UCLA (not sure on USC, but probably closer to those than not). Especially, I would think, Oregon, Arizona, and Utah. And Washington and Colorado only maybe a bit more than those others.

No I am not putting them in that category. And yes USC is now as difficult to get into as the other three. But for purposes of common versus elite divisions they fit on the other side but your right the differences aren't as stark as they are in CA.
05-07-2017 10:51 AM
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Post: #271
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-07-2017 10:22 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah likely snub their noses at their respective state's land-grant public flagship university (OSU, WSU, AZ St, CO St, and UT St, respectively), but you can't possibly be serious in putting them in the same category of admissions elitism as Cal, Stanford, and UCLA (not sure on USC, but probably closer to those than not). Especially, I would think, Oregon, Arizona, and Utah. And Washington and Colorado only maybe a bit more than those others.

Here is the best proxy I could find...
http://www.collegesimply.com/guides/low-...ance-rate/

You have to take low acceptance rate and a very hard rating.
05-07-2017 10:58 AM
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Post: #272
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
Thanks for the link. So Stanford is the hardest in the nation, with 5% acceptance rate on 45k applicants.

The site seems to be missing a lot of data for other schools. U of Oregon, U of Utah, U of Arizona, aren't even on their respective state's lists.
05-07-2017 11:14 AM
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GiveEmTheAxe Offline
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RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
I wouldn't want a permanent cross-over with Boise State just for the sake of completing a zipper. I think a scheduling agreement between the CA schools of the Pac and the MWC is about as far as it should go.
05-07-2017 11:57 AM
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RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-07-2017 11:57 AM)GiveEmTheAxe Wrote:  I wouldn't want a permanent cross-over with Boise State just for the sake of completing a zipper. I think a scheduling agreement between the CA schools of the Pac and the MWC is about as far as it should go.

Yeah Stanford and USC were the hardest to come up with a compelling model. I debated 3 Utah schools with
Utah/Utah State
And BYU/Stanford

The scheduling agreement only works if they are on "equal P5 footing" of course if the PAC 12 took Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and maybe New Mexico (assumes West Virginia is out of the picture) you could get there with the Big 12.

Not that it would happen but say you also took Reno Hawaii and Houston and gave the Big 12 Washington State, Oregon State and Arizona State. 05-stirthepot

Then you have:
PAC-12. Big 12
Wash. Washington State
Oregon. Oregon State
Oklahoma Oklahoma State
Cal. Fresno State
UCLA. SDSU
Hawaii. UNLV
Reno Boise
Kansas. Kansas State
Arizona. Arizona State
Colorado. Colorado State
USC. Baylor
Stanford. TCU
Texas. Texas Tech
Utah. BYU
Houston. Iowa State

With bowl tie ins and cross over games it would generate interest I think.
05-07-2017 03:30 PM
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RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
If the elitist PAC schools are separating from ASU, OSU, and WSU, I don't see them letting in Nevada and Hawaii. And, I don't see Houston getting in ahead of other legacy Big 12 schools. So....

PAC WEST
Washington (WSU)
Oregon (OSU)
Cal (Hawaii)
Stanford (Rice)
USC (SDSU)
UCLA (UNLV)
Arizona (ASU)

PAC EAST
Colorado (CSU)
Utah (BYU)
Texas (TCU)
TTech (Baylor)
Oklahoma (OSU)
Kansas (KSU)
Iowa State (Houston)

Big 12 WEST
WSU (Washington)
OSU (Oregon)
ASU (Arizona)
SDSU (USC)
UNLV (UCLA)
Hawaii (Cal)
BYU (Utah)

Big 12 EAST
TCU (Texas)
Baylor (TTech)
Houston (Iowa St.)
Rice (Stanford)
OSU (Oklahoma)
KSU (Kansas)
CSU (Colorado)
05-08-2017 02:13 PM
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RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
(05-07-2017 10:22 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah likely snub their noses at their respective state's land-grant public flagship university (OSU, WSU, AZ St, CO St, and UT St, respectively), but you can't possibly be serious in putting them in the same category of admissions elitism as Cal, Stanford, and UCLA (not sure on USC, but probably closer to those than not). Especially, I would think, Oregon, Arizona, and Utah. And Washington and Colorado only maybe a bit more than those others.

Arizona State is NOT a Land Grant, or a technically a Flagship (by your own definition - U of Arizona is both). Arizona State is no different than those "fake Landgrants" like Illinois State you like to deride - started as teachers colleges
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RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
If one could actually get PAC dissolution with 9 votes including UW, UO, and AZ...

PAC WEST
Washington (WSU)
Oregon (OSU)
Cal (UNM)
Stanford (ISU)
USC (Baylor)
UCLA (TCU)

PAC EAST
Arizona (ASU)
Colorado (CSU)
Utah (BYU)
Texas (TTU)
Oklahoma (OSU)
Kansas (KSU)

Big 12 WEST
WSU (Washington)
OSU (Oregon)
ASU (Arizona)
UNM (Cal)
CSU (CU)
BYU (Utah)

Big 12 EAST
TCU (UCLA)
Baylor (USC)
ISU (Stanford)
OSU (Oklahoma)
KSU (Kansas)
TTU (UT)

I think that BigXII, with 9 current P5 schools would legitimately remain a P5 conference. Ain't gonna happen, but it's probably exactly what would generate the most revenue without relegating little brothers to permanent G5 status.
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Post: #278
RE: Big West Rejects UC San Diego
Might as well end this thread. People are talking about the Big XII fantasy realignments
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