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Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 10:29 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  Are they really excluding people if the people don't want to be there? There are literally thousands of options for higher education. If Liberty wants to miss out on potential money from this 80% demographic you are speaking of then that's their loss.

Yes, they are excluding if they have a stated ban on employment or admissions. Which they do appear to apply to their athletic department, and there aren't a lot of options there.

Its not just money, but competence. They're not just excluding 80 percent of people, but all of their contributions as well. I'm not sure I'd trust a doctor that felt that they couldn't learn from a Jew or a Gay person.
03-09-2017 11:56 AM
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Wvumike510 Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
Well starting next year Liberty is stopping the mandatory creation class that freshmen had to take and keeping creation in general out of science. At least it's being moved to Theology. Tom, Liberty is slowly progressing. While I doubt they will ever change the mission statement for professors to sign. I believe you'll see the LGBT stance disappear 5-10 years down the road. Every year you see rules softening up.

As for BYU and Coastal scheduling home games with Liberty. There is a huge LDS population in Southern Virginia. In fact the only Mormon school on the east coast is in Virginia in Southern Virginia University. You'll see a regular home and home series with Liberty and BYU. For Coastal, DeCenzo and Falwell are good buddies. Plus Liberty was their only ally when the Big South had their little hissy fit when Coastal declared for the Sun Belt. DeCenzo will play Liberty if there is a chance.
03-09-2017 12:13 PM
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Wvumike510 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 11:56 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 10:29 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  Are they really excluding people if the people don't want to be there? There are literally thousands of options for higher education. If Liberty wants to miss out on potential money from this 80% demographic you are speaking of then that's their loss.

Yes, they are excluding if they have a stated ban on employment or admissions. Which they do appear to apply to their athletic department, and there aren't a lot of options there.

Its not just money, but competence. They're not just excluding 80 percent of people, but all of their contributions as well. I'm not sure I'd trust a doctor that felt that they couldn't learn from a Jew or a Gay person.

There are Atheists, LGBT, Liberals, Conservatives, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and all kind of religious people at Liberty. Residential I'm talking about too. It's a very diverse campus.

Same with staff and professors at Liberty. Yes we have Jews working at Liberty. I can give you names if you want. Professors just has to sign that they have to adhere to the mission statement of Liberty. LUCOM don't require professors to be Christian and regularly hold Islamic events and speakers for the majority of the muslim students that they currently have.
03-09-2017 12:32 PM
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CoastalAlum2011 Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 12:13 PM)Wvumike510 Wrote:  Well starting next year Liberty is stopping the mandatory creation class that freshmen had to take and keeping creation in general out of science. At least it's being moved to Theology. Tom, Liberty is slowly progressing. While I doubt they will ever change the mission statement for professors to sign. I believe you'll see the LGBT stance disappear 5-10 years down the road. Every year you see rules softening up.

As for BYU and Coastal scheduling home games with Liberty. There is a huge LDS population in Southern Virginia. In fact the only Mormon school on the east coast is in Virginia in Southern Virginia University. You'll see a regular home and home series with Liberty and BYU. For Coastal, DeCenzo and Falwell are good buddies. Plus Liberty was their only ally when the Big South had their little hissy fit when Coastal declared for the Sun Belt. DeCenzo will play Liberty if there is a chance.

Well that's an #alternativefact if I have ever seen one!

In fact, I believe every single big south school except 1 stood by us and kept us on their schedule in our transition year. To try and paint a picture that Liberty was our one and only help in our transition is just not true.
03-09-2017 12:37 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 12:32 PM)Wvumike510 Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 11:56 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 10:29 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  Are they really excluding people if the people don't want to be there? There are literally thousands of options for higher education. If Liberty wants to miss out on potential money from this 80% demographic you are speaking of then that's their loss.

Yes, they are excluding if they have a stated ban on employment or admissions. Which they do appear to apply to their athletic department, and there aren't a lot of options there.

Its not just money, but competence. They're not just excluding 80 percent of people, but all of their contributions as well. I'm not sure I'd trust a doctor that felt that they couldn't learn from a Jew or a Gay person.

There are Atheists, LGBT, Liberals, Conservatives, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and all kind of religious people at Liberty. Residential I'm talking about too. It's a very diverse campus.

Same with staff and professors at Liberty. Yes we have Jews working at Liberty. I can give you names if you want. Professors just has to sign that they have to adhere to the mission statement of Liberty. LUCOM don't require professors to be Christian and regularly hold Islamic events and speakers for the majority of the muslim students that they currently have.

LU does have a "Jewish studies department" but it appears as though all the Jews there are Christians of Jewish ethnic heritage.

And how many married LGBT professors? How can you be in compliance with the faculty guidelines and be married and LGBT? I've seen the faculty guidebook. If they aren't enforcing it, then it seems like it wouldn't be much of an issue to simply change the language.

My understanding is that there isn't one single non-Christian employee or LGBT full time permanent employee at the school, other than at the two programs (of which athletics is NOT one) where accreditation agencies demand non-discrimination.
03-09-2017 01:00 PM
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Tealblood Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
Back to bottom line it is going to be expensive for them to get 5 FBS home games
03-09-2017 01:02 PM
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Bobcat87 Offline
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RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 01:02 PM)Tealblood Wrote:  Back to bottom line it is going to be expensive for them to get 5 FBS home games


No problem, Cash gets short, just "Pass the Plate, and Praise Falwell . . " eeerrrr The Lord . . .
03-09-2017 01:08 PM
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Bobcat2013 Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 01:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 12:32 PM)Wvumike510 Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 11:56 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 10:29 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  Are they really excluding people if the people don't want to be there? There are literally thousands of options for higher education. If Liberty wants to miss out on potential money from this 80% demographic you are speaking of then that's their loss.

Yes, they are excluding if they have a stated ban on employment or admissions. Which they do appear to apply to their athletic department, and there aren't a lot of options there.

Its not just money, but competence. They're not just excluding 80 percent of people, but all of their contributions as well. I'm not sure I'd trust a doctor that felt that they couldn't learn from a Jew or a Gay person.

There are Atheists, LGBT, Liberals, Conservatives, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and all kind of religious people at Liberty. Residential I'm talking about too. It's a very diverse campus.

Same with staff and professors at Liberty. Yes we have Jews working at Liberty. I can give you names if you want. Professors just has to sign that they have to adhere to the mission statement of Liberty. LUCOM don't require professors to be Christian and regularly hold Islamic events and speakers for the majority of the muslim students that they currently have.

LU does have a "Jewish studies department" but it appears as though all the Jews there are Christians of Jewish ethnic heritage.

And how many married LGBT professors? How can you be in compliance with the faculty guidelines and be married and LGBT? I've seen the faculty guidebook. If they aren't enforcing it, then it seems like it wouldn't be much of an issue to simply change the language.

My understanding is that there isn't one single non-Christian employee or LGBT full time permanent employee at the school, other than at the two programs (of which athletics is NOT one) where accreditation agencies demand non-discrimination.

Do you aspire to work at LU? If not I don't see why you worry so much about their policies. If they want to turn away money from that demographic, even though that demographic probably wouldn't spend it there anyway, that is their loss. Let them eat it.
03-09-2017 01:51 PM
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Wvumike510 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
Coastalalumn, I was referring to the BS tournament fiasco. I heard only Liberty voted to keep everything at Coastal. I believe you guys got screwed there.

Tom, I don't know what to tell you. Liberty has employees that are lgbt and have different religions working for them. yes they are not professors and yes they have biblical language in employee/student handbook but they are slowly progressing accepting people who don't share the same biblical beliefs teaching at Liberty. As I said before every year they soften up on rules. I know talking about this is like talking in circles because everyone has their opinion on Liberty but i'm just sharing what I have experienced interacting with students and alumn and spending time on campus.
03-09-2017 02:19 PM
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Georgia_Power_Company Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
I think what some are forgetting here is that Liberty is a private religious university and like BYU and I'm sure plenty of others they do have the right (within what's legal) to set some guidelines/expectations for employees and students.

Do I agree with some of them? Nope

Do I not want to play their athletic teams because of said policies? Don't really care it's sports not life or death.

Do I want them in the SBC or to have a scheduling alliance? Nope we really don't need them and I can't see what's in it for us. If we need them latter I might change my mind.
03-09-2017 02:46 PM
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Pounce FTW Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-09-2017 12:13 PM)Wvumike510 Wrote:  Well starting next year Liberty is stopping the mandatory creation class that freshmen had to take and keeping creation in general out of science. At least it's being moved to Theology.

Interesting. I'll have to get more info on this. (And if you have more, please feel free to share...!)

(03-09-2017 02:46 PM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  I think what some are forgetting here is that Liberty is a private religious university and like BYU and I'm sure plenty of others they do have the right (within what's legal) to set some guidelines/expectations for employees and students.

I think most folks acknowledge and respect this, but each one of us probably has limits on what we would want an organization to do while maintaining a strong association with our schools. I think we cover a pretty broad range on here as far as just how much we want Liberty and the schools we love to be grouped together.
03-09-2017 11:11 PM
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Campaign4Liberty Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
It is not so much that Liberty won't hire LGBTQA professors...more so...If one is an LGBTQA professor, they simply wouldn't apply here in the first place. Would a conservative Christian University be your first choice if you were a professor? Do you think Liberty has a check box for sexual orientation on applications? Let us not be foolish here. We do not - and how would we know one's sexual preference even if we did? Also, one does not have to be a Christian to attend school here. As with LGBTQA faculty, the reality is that atheists just don't pick Liberty as their number one school - same with agnostics. And Jews - we love Jews - few schools in the country have a stronger pro-Israel stance than Liberty...that should speak volumes, unless of course your brand of Judaism doesn't come from Israel.

1. We don't ban students of different faiths - the simple fact is that students of other faiths or no faith at all simply rarely apply.
2. We do make sure that faculty / staff adhere to the school's doctrinal statement - no different than a registered Republican being denied employment by the DNC. Such employment would not fit the culture of the DNC and would not further their mission of electing Democrats and furthering the Democratic platform. Simple logic - if you run a business, organization, political party - you're going to hire people that are a good fit for the mission of your organization.
3. LGBTQA types are not banned as students, faculty, or staff - see number 1 - they simply don't apply in large numbers, if at all. And again, how would our admissions department determine sexual preference from an application? Foolish!
4. We love Israel - extremely pro-Israel, extremely pro-Judaism
5. We are a Christian University - an intelligent person would not expect to find a large swath of religious diversity on campus..no different than any other religious school...how many atheists attend BYU? How many Hindus attend Catholic U?

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/li...112ee.html
03-10-2017 09:41 PM
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OsageJ Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-10-2017 09:41 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  It is not so much that Liberty won't hire LGBTQA professors...more so...If one is an LGBTQA professor, they simply wouldn't apply here in the first place. Would a conservative Christian University be your first choice if you were a professor? Do you think Liberty has a check box for sexual orientation on applications? Let us not be foolish here. We do not - and how would we know one's sexual preference even if we did? Also, one does not have to be a Christian to attend school here. As with LGBTQA faculty, the reality is that atheists just don't pick Liberty as their number one school - same with agnostics. And Jews - we love Jews - few schools in the country have a stronger pro-Israel stance than Liberty...that should speak volumes, unless of course your brand of Judaism doesn't come from Israel.

1. We don't ban students of different faiths - the simple fact is that students of other faiths or no faith at all simply rarely apply.
2. We do make sure that faculty / staff adhere to the school's doctrinal statement - no different than a registered Republican being denied employment by the DNC. Such employment would not fit the culture of the DNC and would not further their mission of electing Democrats and furthering the Democratic platform. Simple logic - if you run a business, organization, political party - you're going to hire people that are a good fit for the mission of your organization.
3. LGBTQA types are not banned as students, faculty, or staff - see number 1 - they simply don't apply in large numbers, if at all. And again, how would our admissions department determine sexual preference from an application? Foolish!
4. We love Israel - extremely pro-Israel, extremely pro-Judaism
5. We are a Christian University - an intelligent person would not expect to find a large swath of religious diversity on campus..no different than any other religious school...how many atheists attend BYU? How many Hindus attend Catholic U?

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/li...112ee.html

You know that probably makes to much sense for some of the agendas on here.
03-10-2017 11:31 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-10-2017 09:41 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  It is not so much that Liberty won't hire LGBTQA professors...more so...If one is an LGBTQA professor, they simply wouldn't apply here in the first place. Would a conservative Christian University be your first choice if you were a professor? Do you think Liberty has a check box for sexual orientation on applications? Let us not be foolish here. We do not - and how would we know one's sexual preference even if we did? Also, one does not have to be a Christian to attend school here. As with LGBTQA faculty, the reality is that atheists just don't pick Liberty as their number one school - same with agnostics. And Jews - we love Jews - few schools in the country have a stronger pro-Israel stance than Liberty...that should speak volumes, unless of course your brand of Judaism doesn't come from Israel.

1. We don't ban students of different faiths - the simple fact is that students of other faiths or no faith at all simply rarely apply.
2. We do make sure that faculty / staff adhere to the school's doctrinal statement - no different than a registered Republican being denied employment by the DNC. Such employment would not fit the culture of the DNC and would not further their mission of electing Democrats and furthering the Democratic platform. Simple logic - if you run a business, organization, political party - you're going to hire people that are a good fit for the mission of your organization.
3. LGBTQA types are not banned as students, faculty, or staff - see number 1 - they simply don't apply in large numbers, if at all. And again, how would our admissions department determine sexual preference from an application? Foolish!
4. We love Israel - extremely pro-Israel, extremely pro-Judaism
5. We are a Christian University - an intelligent person would not expect to find a large swath of religious diversity on campus..no different than any other religious school...how many atheists attend BYU? How many Hindus attend Catholic U?

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/li...112ee.html

There's a difference between being a place where most would just say 'no thanks' and a place where there's a stated ban. How can a married LGBT athletic director comply with the faculty/staff guidelines? They can't. Its a full on ban.

Furthermore, the Liberty Way does provide for penalties for simply being Gay and married for students. Whether they are applied rigidly or not, the stated policies allow for a full on ban on Gay married students.

You have a legal right to discriminate. But that doesn't mean that anyone has to accept or further that discrimination. Do you have ANY non-Christian Jewish professors or AD employees at LU in Lynchburg (other than in the two small programs where LU is compelled to do so).

Number 3 is in direct conflict with number 2. If you make it against the rules to be Gay and married, then its a ban.

I think that LU might be conflating 'support for Bibi Netanyahu's government', 'support of Israel', and 'support of the Jewish community'.

If you don't want to lock yourselves off into the NCCAA (an evangelical athletics grouping that has schools like Bob Jones in it) then why lock yourselves out of the wider world in Accounting or Athletics when it comes to participation and employment? LU appears to be cherry picking.

If you assert that LU doesn't enforce its policies, then why keep them? I'm pretty sure getting rid of it won't turn LU into San Francisco State or Yeshiva. LU's choice. Understand that many of us will take your policies at face value.

For me the bottom line is....are we endorsing/furthering discrimination in athletic participation and staffing or not? Would we play a school that said...'no Blacks'? Nope. Why would we play a school that has stated policies prohibiting participation by LGBT persons in any capacity and appears to have policies that ban non-Christian Jews from employment in Lynchburg

Again, you'll find someone willing to play you. But just know that if you're looking to create a environment where discrimination is accepted/normalized/furthered.....using athletics....there's going to be complaints.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2017 12:35 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
03-11-2017 12:26 PM
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Bobcat2013 Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
But why would they apply at Liberty? There are many other options for AD jobs....
03-11-2017 12:43 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #96
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
Mods. Hasn't this gone far afield of the discussion point (ie a scheduling agreement with Liberty). Looks like old ground being plowed.
03-11-2017 12:49 PM
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Wvumike510 Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
Couple of thoughts.

Yes, it says no sex outside of biblical marriage which is man and woman (Same as BYU and Baylor) but no where in the honor code says no LGBT Married/personal relationships. LGBT students/professors are held to the same standards as in the heterosexual students/professors on campus and it does not single them out. You really have to stop looking at the old Liberty Way. I really don't know where you get this ban from. It's not Liberty of 2007. Actually try coming to Liberty and see how diverse it is and see how LGBT issues isn't a big deal anymore. Students and Faculty.
I would argue they're more friendly than BYU, who actually kicks LGBT students out of school. As C4L stated, Liberty doesn't ask sexual preferences on applications and in interviews and they don't know what they do in the bedroom.

You ask why keep the language. It's an evangelical university that's what they are known for. They are not giving it up and lose their support and the students they draw in. Language will probably get changed more loosely in the future as they have been doing to the rules every year.

Pounce, expect the news to be quiet because of the fundies that they're going to upset with this move. Already got Ken Hamm upset. He already removed Liberty from the schools that works with Answers of Genesis.

Lastly, excuse my poor grammar I'm on my phone.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2017 01:26 PM by Wvumike510.)
03-11-2017 01:23 PM
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RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-11-2017 12:49 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Mods. Hasn't this gone far afield of the discussion point (ie a scheduling agreement with Liberty). Looks like old ground being plowed.


Anytime Liberty is brought up Tom is going to take the conversation this way. Really tiring.
03-11-2017 01:55 PM
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RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-11-2017 01:23 PM)Wvumike510 Wrote:  Pounce, expect the news to be quiet because of the fundies that they're going to upset with this move. Already got Ken Hamm upset. He already removed Liberty from the schools that works with Answers of Genesis.

Thanks for sharing some details on this...I really will be paying attention to it, as it shows an interesting shift if it plays out like you seem to think it will.
03-11-2017 06:25 PM
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Campaign4Liberty Offline
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RE: Scheduling agreement with Liberty?
(03-11-2017 06:25 PM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  
(03-11-2017 01:23 PM)Wvumike510 Wrote:  Pounce, expect the news to be quiet because of the fundies that they're going to upset with this move. Already got Ken Hamm upset. He already removed Liberty from the schools that works with Answers of Genesis.

Thanks for sharing some details on this...I really will be paying attention to it, as it shows an interesting shift if it plays out like you seem to think it will.


Also - there are a lot here at LU that simply don't believe in a 6,000 year old earth. Even young earth creationists can't agree - is it 6,000 or 10,000? How can we be sure when biblical scholars don't even agree? The earth is 4.6 billion years old or so - I say that as a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. That line of thought is popular on campus.
03-11-2017 11:07 PM
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