(02-16-2017 11:58 PM)Scoochpooch Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 06:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I hope this results in a flood of schools looking to jump up but who are currently blocked from doing so. With the influx of new schools hopefully a new conference or two emerges.

Yeah it would be great to add 10, 20, 50 more schools that can't compete at the top level.

There are 350 at the top level for basketball, and they pull about the same money for the dance than CFP does. Only the NCAA doesn't share in the CFP payout, so non FBS teams have a vested interest in getting a part of the CFP payout.

Liberty isn't even a real school.

(02-16-2017 08:35 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 08:22 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Western Indy League:

Idaho
Montana
Montana St
E Washington
Portland St
Cal Poly
UC Davis
Sacramento St
New Mexico St

Eastern Indy League:
UMass
Stony Brook
James Madison
Liberty
Jacksonville St
Youngstown St
Illinois St
North Dakota St
South Dakota St
Missouri St

Central Indy League:
Sam Houston State
Lamar
SFA
Wichita State
Missouri State
Central Arkansas
Illinois State
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
New Mexico State

Eastern Indy League:
James Madison
Liberty
Youngstown State
Delaware
UMAss.
Eastern Kentucky
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State
New Hampshire
Stony Brook
Albany

I might add Azusa Pacific, West Texas A&M and Weber State down the road in the future.

Hell yes. Only DavidSt can overshadow this historic day in college football. Keep slayin', DavidSt!

(02-16-2017 11:20 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

Wichita St now sees an open lane for full membership in the AAC. They will take it, as they have money from supporters including the Kochs.

Youngstown St has Tressel and Pelini who can get a lot of money behiInd their FBS dreams.

NDSU has to deal with budget cuts and major Title IX issues with for FBS. Don't see them making a move for at least a few years. To do it right, they need a new stadium, and that isn't feasible for a long while.

Sam Houston St, Lamar, UTRGV and the Montanas and Idaho and possibly E Wash could jump to the WAC is a group with MO St and Wichita St as affiliates. The Big Sky would backfill with western WAC schools.

There is no open lane for Wichita St to become a full member of the AAC. There's a possibility of an AAC Olympic sports membership for Wichita. If they want to try to also go Indy in FBS---that's thier prerogative. The economics of splitting the AAC contract payout 14 ways haven't changed.

(02-17-2017 12:23 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  Liberty isn't even a real school.

Wrong, very fake news.

(02-16-2017 08:52 PM)cleburneslim Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 08:46 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If this is going to require from candidates a history of putting 15k fans in the stands and being able to afford the 85 scholarships not many schools could entertain it.

2015 FCS attendance leaders:

1.Montana 24,139
2. Jacksonville State 20,589
4. James Madison 19,498
5. Montana State 19,172
7. North Dakota State 18,497
9. Delaware 15,826

Only 6 schools that can make an automatic case for FBS. Attendance is on the decline nationally so its becoming tougher to do 15,000.

The loss of these schools of course would bring down averages and general fan interest in their conferences.

Im not sure that rule would hold up either. It seems it would be easy to demonstrate several fbs school do not maintain that level of attendance. And especially the fact that ccu was allowed to join with a stadium that doesn hold 15k.

This is a non-factor. Many FCS to FBS move ups increased stadium capacity after getting the invite. Coastal will have a +/- 21,000 seat stadium by the time they are full FBS members.

(02-16-2017 11:15 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.

Hmm.

There could be some realignment in the next 8 years among the G5. A CUSA split for example where UMass and Liberty could find a home.

Ultimately others will take their place on the outside and the trend toward leaner G5 conferences will continue to maximize the per school payout.

UMass
Marshall
Liberty
Old Dominion
App State
Charlotte
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
Florida Atlantic
Florida International

That's 10 schools w/3 current SBC members. CUSA takes another 3 SBC to get back to 12.

That leaves the SBC with 4 schools (ULM, Troy, USA, Coastal) that I doubt can rebuild in football with poor academics and location. They can hang out with NMSU and play them in football every year. New CFP contract roles out and the SBC is not included.

There could also be some realignment mixed in here where 2-4 AAC schools move to a P5. That could reduce the ranks of CUSA down to 10-12 members with an AAC standing pat at 10.

You might not know this but I will let you in on a little secret. The SBC is currently in much better shape financially than CUSA so if any conference splits up it's more likely to be CUSA.

(02-16-2017 11:41 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 11:30 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 11:20 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

Wichita St now sees an open lane for full membership in the AAC. They will take it, as they have money from supporters including the Kochs.

Youngstown St has Tressel and Pelini who can get a lot of money behiInd their FBS dreams.

NDSU has to deal with budget cuts and major Title IX issues with for FBS. Don't see them making a move for at least a few years. To do it right, they need a new stadium, and that isn't feasible for a long while.

Sam Houston St, Lamar, UTRGV and the Montanas and Idaho and possibly E Wash could jump to the WAC is a group with MO St and Wichita St as affiliates. The Big Sky would backfill with western WAC schools.

SHSU has a small endowment and no facilities
UTRGV has other priorities, and has been an abject and total failure in athletics forever (got tossed from the Sun Belt when they asked the NCAA for the death penalty for their own basketball program so they could avoid paying their basketball coach a small amount in a termination dispute). Lamar has a small student body and....there are already TWELVE FBS programs in Texas.

Idaho is moving down. Its done.

And remember, these new schools moving up will get no CFP money.

FCS programs make very little ense in Texas as they have little support and have little revenue. FBS ones get attention when they win and have much higher guarantees.

Sam Houston St is the equivalent of Troy in Alabama and higher than Jacksonville St and Ga Southern. Only two of those schools are FBS.

UTRGV has made a mess of its athletics in the past, but they plan on turning a new leaf with Mack Brown's help.

A conference move is allocated about preparing for a new CFP contract. That is their pot of gold in the end. Liberty needs one too eventually.

(02-16-2017 11:15 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.

Hmm.

There could be some realignment in the next 8 years among the G5. A CUSA split for example where UMass and Liberty could find a home.

Ultimately others will take their place on the outside and the trend toward leaner G5 conferences will continue to maximize the per school payout.

UMass
Marshall
Liberty
Old Dominion
App State
Charlotte
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
Florida Atlantic
Florida International

That's 10 schools w/3 current SBC members. CUSA takes another 3 SBC to get back to 12.

That leaves the SBC with 4 schools (ULM, Troy, USA, Coastal) that I doubt can rebuild in football with poor academics and location. They can hang out with NMSU and play them in football every year. New CFP contract roles out and the SBC is not included.

There could also be some realignment mixed in here where 2-4 AAC schools move to a P5. That could reduce the ranks of CUSA down to 10-12 members with an AAC standing pat at 10.

How will smaller G5 conferences increase the per school payout? If the total money in the pot is fixed - say $90 million - it doesn't matter if 60 G5 schools are in five conferences or in six (or more). The amount per school stays the same. If you add more schools to those conferences, the per school payout decreases.

The only way you could increase the payout to current G5 schools (beyond what they might get from the same share of a bigger annual pot) is for the P5 conferences to take more out of their own pockets, or for the FCS moveups to be so inviting to ESPN et al that they increase the overall size of the pool.

Fact is that any moveups from FCS now can only be dilutive or revenue neutral for current G5 schools.

(02-16-2017 07:43 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  The Un-Conference:

Idaho
New Mexico State
Cal Poly
UC Davis
UTRGV
UMass
Army
Delaware
Stony Brook
Liberty
James Madison

The un-conference would be pretty strong academically.
A scheduling alliance would work and keep schools from giving up their olympic sports conference for a lesser conference.
Like Missouri ST or JMU lowering standards for SBC invites now they don't have to.

Interesting comment from Dodd article. I think their be be an upcoming rule change about becoming independent.

Liberty said, in its Thursday press release, that the FBS waiver was approved after “feedback” from the NCAA Strategic Vision and Planning Committee, the NCAA Division Football Oversight Committee and the NCAA office of legal affairs.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...stigation/

(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

They won't get a share of the CFP. They're on their own for the next decade. Part of the reason why I don't think anyone else will follow LU is that other schools can't afford to jump without a home. Take out the CFP money and the TV money (small amount but its still something) from and it gets really expensive really quickly.

I don't see Jacksonville State, Lamar, EKU, JMU attempting to move up without a conference. They don't have the money or quite frankly the student or alumni base to support FBS football. It would have to be a private school with tons of money. Unless Grand Canyon Education, Incorporated (d/b/a Grand Canyon University), a Delaware Corporation, wants to do it. LU is the only private school that will go that route.

The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

what?

JMU has 20,000+ students. Almost all on campus. Not commuters like many 20k plus schools have.

we can EASILY support FBS. Everyone knows it.

Sorry, didn't read a 100 post thread.

I'll simply copy and paste what I said in the other thread:


Here's the thing: Liberty has so much money to back this, because they have so many online students. So while they aren't going for profit, per se, they are bringing in truck loads of cash.

It would be like if NDSU, JMU, Montana, etc had 100k undergrad students, paying tuition.

And that money can pay for lawyers too, to sue the NCAA.


That's why I think this is a special one-off, and you won't see any other schools copy this in the near future.

That said, if there is one school who this might prompt into action, regardless, I think it has to be JMU. Their stadium is FBS, better than a lot of G5 actually. They have fan/booster support. Pretty big enrollment.

And Liberty is in-state competition.


They could be close. Just a matter of it they want FBS bad enough, and can't stand to see Liberty race ahead (in addition to Old Dominion, and VCU in non-football).

(02-17-2017 11:19 AM)Duke Dawg Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

They won't get a share of the CFP. They're on their own for the next decade. Part of the reason why I don't think anyone else will follow LU is that other schools can't afford to jump without a home. Take out the CFP money and the TV money (small amount but its still something) from and it gets really expensive really quickly.

I don't see Jacksonville State, Lamar, EKU, JMU attempting to move up without a conference. They don't have the money or quite frankly the student or alumni base to support FBS football. It would have to be a private school with tons of money. Unless Grand Canyon Education, Incorporated (d/b/a Grand Canyon University), a Delaware Corporation, wants to do it. LU is the only private school that will go that route.

The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

what?

JMU has 20,000+ students. Almost all on campus. Not commuters like many 20k plus schools have.

we can EASILY support FBS. Everyone knows it.

JMU could probably get the money....but do they really have it?

1) IIRC JMU has limits on the amount of subsidy they can provide to athletics
2) College coaches in FBS are more numerous and far more expensive than in FCS
3) Additional scholarships and other costs will be incurred for the FBS program and for Title IX.
4) FCOA is pretty much a requirement to be a 'real FBS' program.
5) JMU would receive no CFP payout nor any conference money
6) Barring some sort of currently unavailable scheduling alliance, JMU's travel would be AWFUL. Add another 1 million to the budget just to send the team across the country for the 'find an opening' games.

Sure, JMU has a huge budget. But unless they're willing to downgrade the rest of their athletics budget (basically strip all the other men's sports' budgets) for FBS, then its kind of pointless to discuss that here.

And why would JMU avoid the Sun Belt, with bowl access, nearby rivals, a basketball home currently equivalent to the CAA, better baseball, a voice in the NCAA as a G5, a full CFP payout, consistent scheduling with at least SOME teams you could get rivalries with, bowl bids that make sense, a functioning (if non-renumerative) TV deal......so they can pay more, and receive less, so they can play a lineup of teams that they even have LESS in common with than the Belt's institutions? By the way, I think the Sun Belt door is closed now.

Look at UMass' schedule. You want that? And UMass only has to compete with one other school in their entire region and they have Boston as a friendly scheduling area for purposes of attracting teams. JMU has none of that. JMU as an independent FBS would play an ever changing lineup of teams, plus NMSU, Liberty, and UMass every year. And if you got bowl eligible, you'd get the last bowl slot on a must take basis only.

---

And if it doesn't work for JMU, it doesn't work for most other FCS teams too.

Playing devil's advocate to Tom:

0) look at Louisiana-Monroe. Seriously. They spend pretty much the same as top FCS programs. And are in the Sun Belt, now.
0b) Old Dominion is another school, same state, previously in the same conference as JMU ... and is making it work

1) nothing can do about that
2) the additional coaches aren't required ... can build towards that/phase them in ... and you could just keep the current staff at the current pay, to start
3) additional scholarships ... but perhaps less than you think. The minimum requirement for FBS is not 85, actually. It's 90% of 85, which is 76.5. And yes, you can provide less than a full scholarship in FBS. It's just that the max is 85 and the max scholarship players is 85 ... so if you're at the max then they're all fulls. Plus, each player getting any amount of scholarship counts as a full scholarship player toward the 85 limit. But if you're poor, you're poor ...
4) can build towards that/phase them in
5) the worst point, you are correct here
6) possibly. Then again, the most teams in the country are in the Eastern timezone. That's just how that is.

(02-17-2017 12:05 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Playing devil's advocate to Tom:

0) look at Louisiana-Monroe. Seriously. They spend pretty much the same as top FCS programs. And are in the Sun Belt, now.
0b) Old Dominion is another school, same state, previously in the same conference as JMU ... and is making it work

1) nothing can do about that
2) the additional coaches aren't required ... can build towards that/phase them in ... and you could just keep the current staff at the current pay, to start
3) additional scholarships ... but perhaps less than you think. The minimum requirement for FBS is not 85, actually. It's 90% of 85, which is 76.5. And yes, you can provide less than a full scholarship in FBS. It's just that the max is 85 and the max scholarship players is 85 ... so if you're at the max then they're all fulls. Plus, each player getting any amount of scholarship counts as a full scholarship player toward the 85 limit. But if you're poor, you're poor ...
4) can build towards that/phase them in
5) the worst point, you are correct here
6) possibly. Then again, the most teams in the country are in the Eastern timezone. That's just how that is.

Its easier to maintain something than to change something. ULM and ODU also have conferences to play in. With rivals.

ULM wouldn't be cancelling 3 or 4 mens programs to jump. They've already done it.

(02-17-2017 11:11 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Interesting comment from Dodd article. I think their be be an upcoming rule change about becoming independent.

Liberty said, in its Thursday press release, that the FBS waiver was approved after “feedback” from the NCAA Strategic Vision and Planning Committee, the NCAA Division Football Oversight Committee and the NCAA office of legal affairs.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...stigation/

Lawyers said there was an anti-trust issue?

(02-17-2017 12:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 11:11 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Interesting comment from Dodd article. I think their be be an upcoming rule change about becoming independent.

Liberty said, in its Thursday press release, that the FBS waiver was approved after “feedback” from the NCAA Strategic Vision and Planning Committee, the NCAA Division Football Oversight Committee and the NCAA office of legal affairs.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...stigation/

Lawyers said there was an anti-trust issue?

More likely a systemic bias against a private religious school in the move-up rules. I think its pretty clear there is.

Note that systemic bias does not imply hate, or bigotry.

(02-17-2017 12:46 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 12:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 11:11 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  Interesting comment from Dodd article. I think their be be an upcoming rule change about becoming independent.

Liberty said, in its Thursday press release, that the FBS waiver was approved after “feedback” from the NCAA Strategic Vision and Planning Committee, the NCAA Division Football Oversight Committee and the NCAA office of legal affairs.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-footbal...stigation/

Lawyers said there was an anti-trust issue?

More likely a systemic bias against a private religious school in the move-up rules. I think its pretty clear there is.

Note that systemic bias does not imply hate, or bigotry.

I think the NCAA simply didn't want to fight it. If they did, they'd simply change the rules to state...."no FBS institution can have policies that discriminate in participation or employment on the basis of sexual orientation, marital status, or religion". Then LU (and Baylor and BYU) could choose to comply with it or not. Both BYU and BU would comply. Every other FBS school is in compliance, including religious schools. LU wouldn't be successful if they sued the NCAA over that.

That being said, that the whole conference sponsorship rule was harder to justify on the basis of PRIVATE (regardless of institution) schools. The Belt has a stated preference against private schools. CUSA has never sponsored a move up. The MAC hasn't either.