(01-16-2017 04:00 PM)hoops22 Wrote:  I disagree with most of the comments here. I think Few is a good coach, and a lot of teams would be lucky to have him. As far as this year goes, Gonzaga has only been held under 70 once and that was by Arizona, in a six point Zags win. They've scored 80 or more in every game except a couple, so he is playing a more up tempo style this season. These players are all different from the Adam Morrison era, so you can't hold those failures against the current bunch. I'm amazed Few has the quality teams he has year in and year out, considering the league he's in, and recruiting wasteland he operates from. Last year at this time plenty of people were discounting Villanova because of some recent poor tournament showings, and then they steamrolled nearly everyone they faced on the way to the championship. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the year Gonzaga also makes some real noise . They have a really good team.

Yada, yada, yada, we've heard it all before. Sure many would love to have Few but he has to prove his worth in the Tournament. His performances suggests he's merely finding and plugging players that fit his system and getting the most out of them because their lack of whatever gets exposed in March. Yeah, it's all a crapshoot in March but they've also consistently choked, including last year.

Quote:Round of 32, because it is Gonzaga. However hope they can get as far as they can.

Doesn't add up, though. Gonzaga made it to the Sweet 16 as a #11 Seed last year. They made it to the Elite Eight two years ago as a #2 Seed.

Why, with them on their way to being a #1 or #2 seed -- would you think they're destined to lose in the 2nd round?

I can understand stopping short of the Final Four because THAT's in their cards. And sure, they have been a little more than capable of being upset when they're a top dog over the many years -- but it's by no means a Given.

(01-16-2017 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Be a damn shame if he ever got elected to the Hall of Fame without a Final Four appearance.

Totally agree. Without that deep run, he's going to just look like a very consistent coach for a mid-major program in an irrelevant conference.

Worthy of it otherwise, even if I have doubts about his overall ability. I don't know who goes to that many tournaments consecutively again, especially for a mid-major conference, but people will look at the tournament record and accolades before all of his numbers.

(01-16-2017 04:00 PM)hoops22 Wrote:  I disagree with most of the comments here. I think Few is a good coach, and a lot of teams would be lucky to have him. As far as this year goes, Gonzaga has only been held under 70 once and that was by Arizona, in a six point Zags win. They've scored 80 or more in every game except a couple, so he is playing a more up tempo style this season. These players are all different from the Adam Morrison era, so you can't hold those failures against the current bunch. I'm amazed Few has the quality teams he has year in and year out, considering the league he's in, and recruiting wasteland he operates from. Last year at this time plenty of people were discounting Villanova because of some recent poor tournament showings, and then they steamrolled nearly everyone they faced on the way to the championship. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the year Gonzaga also makes some real noise . They have a really good team.

Few was going deeper in the tournament than Wright was until last year. Believe me, because I'm in the Philly burbs...Phil Martelli held more respect than Jay Wright until he finally broke through...and Martelli hasn't had as good a team as that Elite Eight squad since. A lot of people around here wrote Jay off because he couldn't get far in the tournament. You could like the guy...couldn't fully respect him because of the tournament failures (both in the championship and Big East tournies).

Few will get that same respect if he goes to a Final Four or better. People will forget the majority of the under-performing seasons. A Final Four will do that. A championship will make him immortal, like Jay now is in Philly (and this town still loves Rollie, as much of a shmuck as he was when he wasn't winning the championship).

(01-16-2017 04:38 PM)toddjnsn Wrote:  

Quote:Round of 32, because it is Gonzaga. However hope they can get as far as they can.

Doesn't add up, though. Gonzaga made it to the Sweet 16 as a #11 Seed last year. They made it to the Elite Eight two years ago as a #2 Seed.

Why, with them on their way to being a #1 or #2 seed -- would you think they're destined to lose in the 2nd round?

I can understand stopping short of the Final Four because THAT's in their cards. And sure, they have been a little more than capable of being upset when they're a top dog over the many years -- but it's by no means a Given.

Because that's what they do. Before the last couple years, they had made the Sweet 16 twice in 13 years. The last time they were a 1, they almost lost to a 16 and lost to a 9 in the second round, granted that was a Final Four team. Seeded 3 or higher, they are just 8-5, when it should be 10-5 bare minimum (they lost as the higher seeded team every time but twice, the exceptions including the infamous Adam Morrison crying choke against UCLA). They're just 10-6 as a 4 or higher.

They don't get any credibility until they show up in March.

Look whose undefeated and top ranked.

I think they'll at least make the Sweet 16.

In 2013, 9-seed Wichita State was getting players back from injury and a Vanvleet/Armstead/Baker/Early/Carl Hall starting 5 was insane (injuries prevented this lineup most of the year). Gonzaga makes the Elite 8 that year if not for one poor draw.

This year, I don't see an 8/9 seed with unique circumstances where the stars align like the '13 Shockers or '11 Butler.

I'd like Saint Mary's as an 8/9 to make a deep run but they wouldn't be paired with Gonzaga anyway.

The Zags would have made the Sweet 16 if not for a barrage of 3's from the WheatShox.

(01-30-2017 11:41 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The Zags would have made the Sweet 16 if not for a barrage of 3's from the WheatShox.

Well, any team will win if their opponent can't make shots.

Wichita State figured out how to play against the coverage clock. It wasn't that they were good with the 3's...they knew how to move the ball and control the game in a way that kept momentum on their side.

It instantly felt like a style fit only for the NCAA tournament. That's the smarts of Marshall...or, yet another example of Few being out-coached. Marshall had Few on the ropes before with Winthrop...clearly Marshall demonstrated himself as the better, more adaptive coach.

No, I wasn't speaking in general, Wichita was hitting some ridiculous, difficult 3's late to take command. Gonzaga partially imploded but it was more about Wichita's amazing display from long range.

Gonzaga's unbeaten season will come to an end at St. Mary's in a week.

25-0, they'll be the first undefeated team with a high seed to lose in the first round, LOL.

(01-16-2017 04:53 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 04:03 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Be a damn shame if he ever got elected to the Hall of Fame without a Final Four appearance.

Totally agree. Without that deep run, he's going to just look like a very consistent coach for a mid-major program in an irrelevant conference.

Worthy of it otherwise, even if I have doubts about his overall ability. I don't know who goes to that many tournaments consecutively again, especially for a mid-major conference, but people will look at the tournament record and accolades before all of his numbers.

(01-16-2017 04:00 PM)hoops22 Wrote:  I disagree with most of the comments here. I think Few is a good coach, and a lot of teams would be lucky to have him. As far as this year goes, Gonzaga has only been held under 70 once and that was by Arizona, in a six point Zags win. They've scored 80 or more in every game except a couple, so he is playing a more up tempo style this season. These players are all different from the Adam Morrison era, so you can't hold those failures against the current bunch. I'm amazed Few has the quality teams he has year in and year out, considering the league he's in, and recruiting wasteland he operates from. Last year at this time plenty of people were discounting Villanova because of some recent poor tournament showings, and then they steamrolled nearly everyone they faced on the way to the championship. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the year Gonzaga also makes some real noise . They have a really good team.

Few was going deeper in the tournament than Wright was until last year. Believe me, because I'm in the Philly burbs...Phil Martelli held more respect than Jay Wright until he finally broke through...and Martelli hasn't had as good a team as that Elite Eight squad since. A lot of people around here wrote Jay off because he couldn't get far in the tournament. You could like the guy...couldn't fully respect him because of the tournament failures (both in the championship and Big East tournies).

Few will get that same respect if he goes to a Final Four or better. People will forget the majority of the under-performing seasons. A Final Four will do that. A championship will make him immortal, like Jay now is in Philly (and this town still loves Rollie, as much of a shmuck as he was when he wasn't winning the championship).

Whew! Harsh critics in Philly. Before last year, all that Jay did was to take his team to the tournament 10 times in 11 years where he lost to the eventual national champs in 6 of those 10 tournaments. What did Martelli ever do that remotely approaches that? Oh, yeah, he wis eliminated in the Elite 8 when he had the #1 team in the country.

What did Jay have to show for those 10 trips to the tournament? 4 Sweet 16's, 2 Elite 8's, and a Final 4. And they should have gone to the Final 4 in their Elite 8 run in 2005 when they were eliminated in a 1-point loss to North Carolina on a terrible call by the ref at the end of the game.

Apparently Jay got no love even for the seasons when his team's overachieved as he reinvented them afte injuries. Even without last year's NC, most programs would love to have the results that JAY Wright brought to Villanova.

Marteli also does it at a harder place to win. There are numerous high schools with better facilities than St. Joe's.

This Gonzaga team is different. It will go to the championship game.

I love how people beat up on Few. The truth is that his teams have overachieved. His finishes in the tournament seemed disappointing but only because they came into the tournament with gaudy records. I'd love to know the names of all the great players, all the top recruits he's had at Gonzaga.

Mark Few has been one of the most consistent coaches in NCAA history. I don't care what his teams have done in the tournament. He's gotten them there for 17 straight years and they'll be there again this year. Easy conference? Sure, but a lot of teams are in easy conferences and I don't see anyone else going to 18 straight tournaments. And they didn't do it at Gonzaga before Mark got there. They're in an easy conference because that's who they are - a mid major. And they are simply the most dominant mid major program in the country.

Marshall is a great coach. No doubt. But better than Few? He's been a head coach for 19 years, 1 year longer than Few. He's missed the tournament 6 times; Few never has. Marshall's teams have gotten past the first weekend twice. Few has gotten past the first weekend 6 times. Marshall has a total of 9 tournament wins. Few has 21 tournament wins. Both coaches have gotten to 1 Elite 8. So Marshall is a better tournament coach because he won 1 more game that one time he got to the Elite 8? Sure.

His teams have simultaneously overachieved and underachieved with the exception of his first two and those players were molded/recruited by Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson. Ever since, Few has been the definition of a regular season coach and system runner. He's only had about 2 runs you could be proud of since 2001.

Gonzaga is a great story about a program emerging from nothing to become nationally relevant and even a power at times but they no longer get a pat on the back just for doing a lot better than a WCC school should. It's time to produce. Final Four or bust this year and a loss in the semifinals would be a disappointment honestly. A loss any earlier than the Sweet 16 and no one should ever take them serious again.

(01-16-2017 12:16 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 07:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 06:04 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  They consistently choke...

Yeah, they do. I think their conference plays a role in that in the form of atrophy as the season advances. Gonzaga plays a front-heavy schedule, and then goes into the abyss of their mostly horrible conference (spare SMC and BYU) where they don't see other solid tournament teams for basically two months (SMC is the exception this year, but most ones see SMC and BYU on the bubble and its fringes). Their conference is one of the first to declare its AQ, so they sit again for a few days, and then they go into that crazy opening weekend. It's not a good tempo or place for Gonzaga. There's just too much drop-off from competitive exposure. It doesn't serve them well.

I don't know what to do with them in a bracket anymore. I want to pencil them in to go far every year, but I know now from enough prior bad acts that I shouldn't. Even for the Sweet 16, which, they should be able to reach almost every year if they aren't in that 7-10 seed cluster. They do me in the same way Michigan State and Duke tend to do...they should be good for a long journey, given the name on the jersey, but they muck it up enough, too.

I think that the Zags get perennially overrated because they beat up a bunch of jack nobodies and then they get exposed when they play real teams.

Their big OOC games were against a terrible Tennessee team (9-8), an atrocious Washington team (8-9), an overrated Arizona team, and a mediocre Iowa state team. Their in-conference schedule consists of an overrated St. Mary's team and a bunch of nobodies. Of course their record is great. Their marquee game was against an overrated #16.

The truth is that, as usual, Gonzaga isn't good. They're a round of 32 team that will probably make the Sweet Sixteen because of inflated seeding.

So if a team loses to Gonzaga, then by definition they're overrated, right?

#9 Arizona is "overrated". #17 Florida is "overrated". #20 St Mary's is "overrated". #29 Iowa State is "mediocre". What about all the teams those guys beat? Sounds like the whole country is either overrated or mediocre.

You forgot to mention that with that weak schedule is set up for bad loss here or there.Maybe several. How many do they have? None.

While we're at it, you also forgot to mention that their weak schedule is ranked #77 by RPI. So there are almost 300 teams with weaker schedules than theirs. Lots of mediocrity.

BTW, how's UAB doing these days? Overrated or mediocre?

(02-10-2017 07:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  His teams have simultaneously overachieved and underachieved with the exception of his first two and those players were molded/recruited by Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson. Ever since, Few has been the definition of a regular season coach and system runner. He's only had about 2 runs you could be proud of since 2001.

Give me a break. They're a mid major. What mid major makes "runs you can be proud of"? He's been to 6 Sweet 16's. If any other mid major does that once, it's historic, best team in school history.

Again I ask, who are the great players and top recruits he's lost with?

[quoye]Gonzaga is a great story about a program emerging from nothing to become nationally relevant and even a power at times but they no longer get a pat on the back just for doing a lot better than a WCC school should. It's time to produce. Final Four or bust this year and a loss in the semifinals would be a disappointment honestly. A loss any earlier than the Sweet 16 and no one should ever take them serious again.
[/quote]

Stop. You're going off the deep end. Do you know how many #1 seeds get to the Final 4 every year? But if Gonzaga misses this year, they should never be taken seriously? You act like getting to the Final 4 is easy to do. It's not. It's really, really hard even for teams loaded with McD's AA's. Your comments are trivializing the accomplishment.

If Gonzaga misses the F4 this year, we should expect them to gear up for another run at it next year. They lose only 2 of the top 8 players from this year's team. And their best player is a freshman.

(02-10-2017 07:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  His teams have simultaneously overachieved and underachieved with the exception of his first two and those players were molded/recruited by Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson.

How does that work? Monson's 1999 Elite 8 team was loaded with juniors and seniors, only 2 sophomores and no freshmen. The 3 seniors graduated immediately and the 5 juniors played one year for Few before they too graduated.

The team that Few took to the Sweet 16 in his second year as HC was almost entirely his own players.

As for the team in his first season, Few had something to do with recruiting and developing the 7 guys on that team who he did inherit since he had been an assistant at Gonzaga for 10 years. Monson acknowledged the importance of Few's role by promoting him to Associate Head Coach that year.

Sometimes it's a great assistant who makes the HeadCoach's success, not the other way around. Where did Monson ever achieve comparable success without Few?

They may be a small school but they don't get a break anymore. It's like how a young prodigy is lauded and praised for his/her talents at a young age and is great relative to his/her peers. At a certain point, you have to perform to the lofty expectations you've created. Imagine if LeBron James never won a title or even advanced to the NBA Finals. Heck, imagine if he was just good but not an all-time great.

So yes, I'll be hard on them until they prove something. Until they do, they're just a cute little underdog that's good enough to make a name for itself but not to be taken serious. The Tournament is a crapshoot but they choke far more often than they bring in results. Welcome to the real world, welcome to the big leagues of college sports.

Who are the players he's lost with:

Robert Sacre
Austin Daye
Adam Morrison
JP Bautista
David Stockton
Eric Ravio
Dan Dicau
Rony Turiaf
Sabonis Jr.

And many more. Some were highly touted, some were star college players that went on to have NBA careers.

He's had the talent and had dynamic teams, yet blown it every time except in 2009 and 2015. 18 straight NCAA Tournaments, multiple top 4 seeds, they're undefeated and top ranked...that's no minor program, no matter how weak the WCC has been. They need to make a really deep run. No more BS about the Dance being a crapshoot, no BS about them being a small program, if they want respect, they have to earn it.

(02-10-2017 08:37 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 07:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  His teams have simultaneously overachieved and underachieved with the exception of his first two and those players were molded/recruited by Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson.

How does that work? Monson's 1999 Elite 8 team was loaded with juniors and seniors, only 2 sophomores and no freshmen. The 3 seniors graduated immediately and the 5 juniors played one year for Few before they too graduated.

The team that Few took to the Sweet 16 in his second year as HC was almost entirely his own players.

As for the team in his first season, Few had something to do with recruiting and developing the 7 guys on that team who he did inherit since he had been an assistant at Gonzaga for 10 years. Monson acknowledged the importance of Few's role by promoting him to Associate Head Coach that year.

Sometimes it's a great assistant who makes the HeadCoach's success, not the other way around. Where did Monson ever achieve comparable success without Few?

All three teams had Casey Calvary. He was a major x-factor for those initial Gonzaga teams and was a Fitzgerald recruit IIRC. I know Few had a major role as an assistant under Fitzgerald and Monson but he has proven to be a regular season shark and postseason flop with his own players in full.

Monson also left for an okay program in a conference where you can't have an off night, unlike at Gonzaga where you can play poorly and win half the time. I give Few credit for being consistent but it shows that it's a regular season type deal. It's not like he is always losing with out manned teams. Numerous runs to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 or potentially farther have been cut short by chokes.