Looks like the kind of
stuff that goes on at many colleges. NCAA might feel compelled to look into this, given the recent focus on UNC. Apparently there will be a lot more detail in this writer's new book.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/01/sport...tball.html
Quote:The story of Ms. Suggs’s experience trying to hold athletes to the same standards as other students, pieced together from emails, other documents and interviews, came to light during research for a forthcoming book, “Champions Way: Football, Florida, and the Lost Soul of College Sports” (W. W. Norton).
Quote:One of the players involved in Ms. Suggs’s complaint was James Wilder Jr., who had been arrested three times in the previous year and was on track to get, at best, a grade of D in one course. He emailed his professor as the summer semester was ending to say he needed a B “to keep myself in good academic place with the school.” The professor, Mark Bonn, who ran the hospitality courses, instructed Ms. Suggs to work with Mr. Wilder — he referred to him as “a starting star running back,” before noting that all students should be treated equally — and give him a chance to make up past assignments and submit missing portions of his final project, even though it had already been graded.
Ms. Suggs wrote that Mr. Wilder “should have done the work like everyone else” and objected to granting him special treatment, telling a colleague, “I am not offering this opportunity to other students.” The colleague agreed, summing up their mutual concern about Professor Bonn: “Trying to put a stop to his favoritism for athletes once and for all.”
“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
True, there must be dozens of colleges (at least) at which teaching assistants are pressured to "help" athletes and at which there are easy classes or professors to which athletes are directed. Most of the time, competitors are prudent enough to not throw stones from inside their glass houses, though there are examples from the past of competitors throwing those stones anyway.
(09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
We can talk about how it happens at other places but the fact of the matter is that it shouldn't be happening anywhere. Everybody who attends university should be able to make the grades - legitimately.
(09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
(09-01-2017 03:37 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
Yeah, I'll second that.
(09-01-2017 03:37 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
Agreed
The basic deal in a moderately difficult class is:
1. Athlete attends every class
2. Athlete turns in all work
3. Athlete shows some semblance of learning
4. Athlete looks you in the eye
5. Athlete gets C-
This happens in more than just sports. A tenured professor at New York University told me that both the dean and the department head came down hard on him to make sure that the son of a guy who had just donated $10 million to the school passed his course. The student had done almost no work. The prof said he tried to fight it, but eventually caved so as not to jeopardize his career.
NYU is one of the 10-20 best schools in the country.
(09-01-2017 03:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:37 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
Agreed
The basic deal in a moderately difficult class is:
1. Athlete attends every class
2. Athlete turns in all work
3. Athlete shows some semblance of learning
4. Athlete looks you in the eye
5. Athlete gets C-
My brother and I are both professors (not at the same school). We both teach difficult courses, and we've both had many athletes in class. Every single one has earned good grades on their own merits. In fact, on average, they outperformed non-athletes.
I'd say that the vast majority of athletes/rich heirs go to college for the same reasons as everyone else, and their achievements shouldn't be tarnished by the scandals that we read in the news.
There is not a D1 university in the country that doesn't shepard student-athletes through the academic portion of their time in school.
I don't have a problem with that.
If this is the worst thing FSU does to help athletes, they should get an award for being a model power football school.
(09-01-2017 09:22 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote: [ -> ]If this is the worst thing FSU does to help athletes, they should get an award for being a model power football school.
It's far from the worst thing FSU has done. Remember Winston? If not for the Tallahassee P.D. that whole situation with a date rape drug, and it's following sexual assault, would have proven how much worse it really is. Hopefully they have better control of the program than they did then.
(09-01-2017 04:01 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:37 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
Agreed
The basic deal in a moderately difficult class is:
1. Athlete attends every class
2. Athlete turns in all work
3. Athlete shows some semblance of learning
4. Athlete looks you in the eye
5. Athlete gets C-
My brother and I are both professors (not at the same school). We both teach difficult courses, and we've both had many athletes in class. Every single one has earned good grades on their own merits. In fact, on average, they outperformed non-athletes.
I'd say that the vast majority of athletes/rich heirs go to college for the same reasons as everyone else, and their achievements shouldn't be tarnished by the scandals that we read in the news.
I should have said male football player, basketball player, baseball player, and wrestler. I've never had an academic dud with any female athlete.
(09-01-2017 10:57 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 04:01 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:37 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 01:44 PM)ken d Wrote: [ -> ]“Brazilian coffee is one of few places that has a carnival and the coffee place a major role just as much as the dancing and the food,” he wrote.
That was one of my favorite quotes from papers turned in by football players. That being said, I don't think any student or academic is going to think any less of FSU's academic reputation because they don't hold their athletes to the same standards as regular students. And, I believe that is true of pretty much every university to a greater or lesser degree.
While we often hear criticism of academic "scandals" like the ones at UNC and FSU in online forums, you don't hear all that much from their competitors. They are too conscious of the glass houses they live in to criticize others.
While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
Agreed
The basic deal in a moderately difficult class is:
1. Athlete attends every class
2. Athlete turns in all work
3. Athlete shows some semblance of learning
4. Athlete looks you in the eye
5. Athlete gets C-
My brother and I are both professors (not at the same school). We both teach difficult courses, and we've both had many athletes in class. Every single one has earned good grades on their own merits. In fact, on average, they outperformed non-athletes.
I'd say that the vast majority of athletes/rich heirs go to college for the same reasons as everyone else, and their achievements shouldn't be tarnished by the scandals that we read in the news.
I should have said male football player, basketball player, baseball player, and wrestler. I've never had an academic dud with any female athlete.
That's true. The men's sports teams at Auburn that always had the highest grade were the Swimmers and the Baseball players. Tennis and Golf would sneak in there every now and then but those guys like the Country Club life too much to be there regularly. I don't know where baseball stands this past year but since the scholarships are limited for baseball and most of the players know they aren't headed to the pros they push the books pretty hard.
I have been known to call baseball the last true college sport of the big 3 left at Auburn and our latest AD is doing his best to screw that up too.
We often hear that athletes should be held to the same academic standards as "regular" students. My view is that, if we are going to do that, then we must also hold them to the same admission standards.
But as long as the NCAA and its member institutions are willing to admit students who aren't prepared on the front end, then the schools that admit those athletes will have to have performance standards commensurate with their aptitude and preparedness.
I'm a little surprised universities don't have established policies for this. How difficult is it to develop standards for extra credit and turning in work late? Having a policy that applies to all students would eliminate the appearance of impropriety. Leaving the decision in the hands of a graduate/teaching assistant is a recipe for disaster.
(09-02-2017 12:12 PM)Wolfman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a little surprised universities don't have established policies for this. How difficult is it to develop standards for extra credit and turning in work late? Having a policy that applies to all students would eliminate the appearance of impropriety. Leaving the decision in the hands of a graduate/teaching assistant is a cop out.
FIFY
(09-02-2017 12:21 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-02-2017 12:12 PM)Wolfman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a little surprised universities don't have established policies for this. How difficult is it to develop standards for extra credit and turning in work late? Having a policy that applies to all students would eliminate the appearance of impropriety. Leaving the decision in the hands of a graduate/teaching assistant is a cop out.
FIFY
From the athletic department point of view, it's a feature, not a bug. As the FSU example in the article linked above illustrates, grad students are easily pressured or coerced because both their career status and their finances are precarious at best.
(09-01-2017 11:33 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 10:57 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 04:01 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:50 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-01-2017 03:37 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]While all of this falls under the category of "academic sins" there is a difference between giving great leniency in an actual course as opposed to fraudulently offering a course that never meets, billing the government or families or even the school itself for it, posting totally bogus grades for non-existent work, and then having the chutzpah to tout how clean your program is and how stellar your academics are.
Agreed
The basic deal in a moderately difficult class is:
1. Athlete attends every class
2. Athlete turns in all work
3. Athlete shows some semblance of learning
4. Athlete looks you in the eye
5. Athlete gets C-
My brother and I are both professors (not at the same school). We both teach difficult courses, and we've both had many athletes in class. Every single one has earned good grades on their own merits. In fact, on average, they outperformed non-athletes.
I'd say that the vast majority of athletes/rich heirs go to college for the same reasons as everyone else, and their achievements shouldn't be tarnished by the scandals that we read in the news.
I should have said male football player, basketball player, baseball player, and wrestler. I've never had an academic dud with any female athlete.
That's true. The men's sports teams at Auburn that always had the highest grade were the Swimmers and the Baseball players. Tennis and Golf would sneak in there every now and then but those guys like the Country Club life too much to be there regularly. I don't know where baseball stands this past year but since the scholarships are limited for baseball and most of the players know they aren't headed to the pros they push the books pretty hard.
I have been known to call baseball the last true college sport of the big 3 left at Auburn and our latest AD is doing his best to screw that up too.
I know someone who worked with athletes at a major school. There were definitely some female athletes who were academic duds. I had the same assumption, but she said it wasn't true.
There are 3 basic levels:
1) UNC-total fraud;
2) Pressuring teachers to give athletes grades; and
3) Teachers giving athletes breaks which happens at probably every school. For that matter, grades are not all math. Many teachers do give breaks to non-athlete students they like. If someone is on the cusp, they might get that B instead of a C.
Every major school gives a lot of help to the athletes. They have tutors, academic counselors, note takers, sometimes even attendance monitors.
(09-02-2017 04:43 PM)Wedge Wrote: [ -> ] (09-02-2017 12:21 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ] (09-02-2017 12:12 PM)Wolfman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm a little surprised universities don't have established policies for this. How difficult is it to develop standards for extra credit and turning in work late? Having a policy that applies to all students would eliminate the appearance of impropriety. Leaving the decision in the hands of a graduate/teaching assistant is a cop out.
FIFY
From the athletic department point of view, it's a feature, not a bug. As the FSU example in the article linked above illustrates, grad students are easily pressured or coerced because both their career status and their finances are precarious at best.
The policy is up to the individual professor at every school I've been at.
If the professor is leaving it up to grad students to make that sort of decision, he/she isn't doing their job.