Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
(06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
It would be interesting to see the P5's records against the G5 and FCS over the same time frame. That might dispel some myths and raise some new questions as well.
(06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
(06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
(06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
If the list includes bowl games, it would be important to know how many P5 bowl games the SEC has played compared to other conferences.
How many FCS games have each of the conferences played?
It would be interesting to see the P5 v. G5 v. FCS percentages for the various conference regular season OOC schedules (noting that PAC and B12 play 9 conference games....).
This is all very interesting and everybody is probably going to concede the SEC was the best conference in this time period. But its hard to draw hard conclusions going forward because of constantly changing members, total number of members, and number of conference games each team played each year.
As for total OOC games, is it fair to compare a 10-team PAC that played 9 conference games with a 12-team SEC that played 8 conference games? OF course the SEC is going to have more opportunities to play more P5 OOC games.
(06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
It'd be way too much work but a matrix of P5 schools vs P5 schools would be helpful. For example, what if half of the SEC's P5 games were against schools like Washington St, Oregon St, Rutgers, Connecticut, Temple, etc.? I know those schools have had good seasons, but overall are not at the top of the food chain.
Those numbers are very consistent with all rating systems that evaluate relative top-to-bottom strength of the power conferences. Popular perception is colored by the strength of the top teams, but over time the SEC has consistently been strongest overall in the past 20 years, followed by the PAC, Big 12, Big Ten and ACC in that order.
But this also shows that the differences among P5's aren't nearly as great as the differences in public perception.
No surprise that the overrated Big 10 is the 2nd worst.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
(06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why aren't games against the then BCS conference Big East included? No wonder the SEC has the most. You are taking away a big chunk of games for the ACC and B1G. If you are going back to the BCA era than you should count the BCS conferences. Are games against Notre Dame included as well or no? Seems like a flawed list.
(06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Love these posts that involved quite a bit of research during the off season. Good topic and good work Quo.
We can hypothesize a little that the schools in conferences of the ACC and BIG and perhaps the Big 12 at the lower end needs FCS and G5 schools to schedule to get a few wins at least.
(06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
(06-26-2017 10:51 AM)goofus Wrote: [ -> ]This is all very interesting and everybody is probably going to concede the SEC was the best conference in this time period. But its hard to draw hard conclusions going forward because of constantly changing members, total number of members, and number of conference games each team played each year.
As for total OOC games, is it fair to compare a 10-team PAC that played 9 conference games with a 12-team SEC that played 8 conference games? OF course the SEC is going to have more opportunities to play more P5 OOC games.
More opportunities cuts both ways - more chances to win, but also to lose.
Generally speaking, regression to the mean suggests that the more games you play, the harder it is to keep up a positive winning percentage. E.g., anyone can go 1-0, it's far harder to go 10-0.
So it is impressive to have the best win % while also playing the most games.
(06-26-2017 01:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
... because I was just interested in "P5 vs P5", the current configuration of power conferences. Obviously, we could look at many things - just regular season, just bowl games, just games vs G5, just games vs FCS, all games vs everybody, etc. I was interested in this specific topic so I posted on it.
(06-26-2017 01:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
... because I was just interested in "P5 vs P5", the current configuration of power conferences. Obviously, we could look at many things - just regular season, just bowl games, just games vs G5, just games vs FCS, all games vs everybody, etc. I was interested in this specific topic so I posted on it.
Most of the BE is in a P5, and arbitrarily ignoring a conference will lead to skewed results, rendering them close to meaningless.
(06-26-2017 01:23 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ]Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
... because I was just interested in "P5 vs P5", the current configuration of power conferences. Obviously, we could look at many things - just regular season, just bowl games, just games vs G5, just games vs FCS, all games vs everybody, etc. I was interested in this specific topic so I posted on it.
Most of the BE is in a P5, and arbitrarily ignoring a conference will lead to skewed results, rendering them close to meaningless.
If your purpose is to make an an argument with stats, you pick the stats that "prove" your argument.
(06-26-2017 01:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
... because I was just interested in "P5 vs P5", the current configuration of power conferences. Obviously, we could look at many things - just regular season, just bowl games, just games vs G5, just games vs FCS, all games vs everybody, etc. I was interested in this specific topic so I posted on it.
Well it's not P5 vs P5 because you are leaving out games against ranked power conference teams like Miami, VT, WVU, Pitt, UofL, Cincy, Rutgers and Syracuse.
(06-26-2017 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]Here are the overall records for each P5 conference vs the rest of the P5 since 1998, the dawn of the BCS era, regular season and bowl games included.
Note that this includes games played only when teams were in a P5 conference. So, e.g., if in 2000 Alabama played Louisville while Louisville was in C-USA, that game would not appear in this total, but a game between Alabama and Louisville in 2015, while Louisville was in the ACC, would. Also, among the P5, conference affiliation is as of the time the game was played. So e.g. a 2001 game between Maryland and LSU would count as ACC vs SEC, but a 2016 game between the same teams would be B1G vs SEC:
ACC: .......... 136 - 172 ... 44%
Big 12: ....... 142 - 142 .... 50%
B1G: .......... 143 - 175 .... 45%
PAC ............ 140 - 120 .... 54%
SEC ............ 191 - 143 .... 57%
Note that the SEC often gets critiqued for avoiding P5 games in favor of rent-a-wins, but this chart shows that SEC teams have actually played more overall games vs other P5 than any other conference.
And this data right here is the best argument that I have seen yet as to why the schools in the current power conferences will not split off from the NCAA. They need the G5 and FCS teams to help pad the W-L records because Wal-Mart T-Shirt fans and even some athletic boosters won't buy losing teams.
(06-26-2017 02:07 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:39 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ]Is this only OOC and Bowl Games?
It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
... because I was just interested in "P5 vs P5", the current configuration of power conferences. Obviously, we could look at many things - just regular season, just bowl games, just games vs G5, just games vs FCS, all games vs everybody, etc. I was interested in this specific topic so I posted on it.
Well it's not P5 vs P5 because you are leaving out games against ranked power conference teams like Miami, VT, WVU, Pitt, UofL, Cincy, Rutgers and Syracuse.
Actually, what I posted was precisely "P5 vs P5". Including anything else would have rendered it something other than P5 vs P5.
(06-26-2017 03:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 02:07 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 01:00 PM)nzmorange Wrote: [ -> ] (06-26-2017 10:43 AM)quo vadis Wrote: [ -> ]It is OOC and Bowl Games vs other P5 only. So, e.g., the B1G total includes only games that B1G schools have played vs the SEC, ACC, PAC, and Big 12, both regular season and bowls. Games that B1G teams played against teams from any other conferences, existing ones such as the Sun Belt and MWC and also ones that are now defunct, such as the WAC and Big East, are not incuded. Games vs independents and FCS are also not included, only games vs other P5 conferences.
Why would you not include games against the BIG EAST? It was a power conference.
... because I was just interested in "P5 vs P5", the current configuration of power conferences. Obviously, we could look at many things - just regular season, just bowl games, just games vs G5, just games vs FCS, all games vs everybody, etc. I was interested in this specific topic so I posted on it.
Well it's not P5 vs P5 because you are leaving out games against ranked power conference teams like Miami, VT, WVU, Pitt, UofL, Cincy, Rutgers and Syracuse.
Actually, what I posted was precisely "P5 vs P5". Including anything else would have rendered it something other than P5 vs P5.
Except you arbitrarily excluded a number of teams who are P5 teams now, and/or who were power teams then (there was no P5, only a P6).
In using your deeply flawed methodology, you got a result that you wouldn't have expected had you used a sound methodology. That's not really surprising :/