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A question for you legal beavers. Could this decision provide basis for the return of the feathers? Maybe even The Indians? This could be the 'something big' for Ms Huge!

(06-22-2017 09:43 AM)SoCal Frank Wrote: [ -> ]A question for you legal beavers. Could this decision provide basis for the return of the feathers? Maybe even The Indians? This could be the 'something big' for Ms Huge!

I'm FAR from an expert, but I believe it doesn't apply. The reason is we did not have a legal challenge to our feathers, we had the NCAA tell us if we had our feathers, we couldn't host championship events, etc.

(06-22-2017 09:43 AM)SoCal Frank Wrote: [ -> ]A question for you legal beavers. Could this decision provide basis for the return of the feathers? Maybe even The Indians? This could be the 'something big' for Ms Huge!

No.

WM sports in a nutshell - half the fans care more about a pair of idiotic feathers than a competent basketball program (this does not apply to the MANY on this board who work very hard to spur positive change).

No, the fans are not happy that the school folded with the NCAA ... AND ... won't put forth a more competitive men's hoops program ... all part of the same problem ... failure to forge, promote, and protect the school's athletic component.

Capiche?

(06-22-2017 01:04 PM)nj alum Wrote: [ -> ]No, the fans are not happy that the school folded with the NCAA ... AND ... won't put forth a more competitive men's hoops program ... all part of the same problem ... failure to forge, promote, and protect the school's athletic component.

Capiche?

Solid retort!!

It was an NCAA ruling, so no.

(06-22-2017 05:32 PM)TDenverFan Wrote: [ -> ]It was an NCAA ruling, so no.

Is it possible that the NCAA exceeded their bounds? If the Cleveland Indians can use their symbol( a genuine icon), why couldn't we. I understand that this all a pipedream. But it does provide some food for thought. Incidentally, one can cheer for the basketball team and chew gum.

(06-22-2017 07:41 PM)SoCal Frank Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-22-2017 05:32 PM)TDenverFan Wrote: [ -> ]It was an NCAA ruling, so no.

Is it possible that the NCAA exceeded their bounds? If the Cleveland Indians can use their symbol( a genuine icon), why couldn't we. I understand that this all a pipedream. But it does provide some food for thought. Incidentally, one can cheer for the basketball team and chew gum.

The ruling had to do with whether the government (more specifically the USPTO) could prevent certain type of speech that disparages the members of a racial or ethnic group The Court ruled no because the disparagement clause violates the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause.

The NCAA, a nonprofit association, is not subject to the First Amendment's Free Speech Clause.

Thanks TD. My niece is an incoming freshman st DU. Maybe some of your acumen will rub off on her? Maybe not!

I could be wrong, but I feel like the school dropped the feathers by its own decision. They may have felt pressure from the NCAA, but I don't think that they were forced.

Oy...forget the feathers. It's been a decade now and to today's students the feathers are something you find on a bird. It's long over and buried.

(06-23-2017 05:43 AM)BigTribe3 Wrote: [ -> ]Oy...forget the feathers. It's been a decade now and to today's students the feathers are something you find on a bird. It's long over and buried.

I just don't get, nor accept, this weak and defeatist attitude.

The only difference between the Utah Utes logo and the W&M logo was that our two feathers stood up, and the Utes' two feathers hang down. The Utes still have their logo; W&M does not.

It did not, does not, and never will, sit well with me.

It is intellectually dishonest to the core ... something drilled home by four years of fabulous teaching at the College of Knowledge.

My preference is that my school, and the Administration of my school, show some backbone on this issue, especially since a "clever" route to reinstatement of the feathers is available with the emergence of the Griffin.

That they choose not to do so is their choice, and I will not tar and feather them for being weak on this issue.

But don't tell me to forget the feathers.

I wore the Indian athletics gear proudly in the 70's, represented the College proudly, and I dissent from the PC that pervades the NCAA, and the college landscape in general.

Yes, the Indian imagery from years gone by might be considered by some to be a caricature that should be avoided, but the remedy is to amend the caricature, and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

The W&M-Indian roots go back to the founding of the school, and that is something all freshmen learned when they questioned why we were the Indians. Do today's students have the same knowledge and understanding? The teaching of history comes in many forms. We alumni do today's students a dis-service if this issue is not kept alive.

It's really hard for them to care when today's Freshmen were 7 or 8 years old when the feather was taken away and they did not have anything to do with W&M back then. I am not a PC guy either but people don't get upset about things that happened that long before they were involved when the thing happened when they were a child.

99% of alums remember the feathers. Current students shouldnt be the deciding factor. We are sorely lacking any athletic logo that actually can be easily traced back to the name William & Mary. Attempts at a replacement have been awful.

All this being said, I do think they will be gone forever unless we go private in the next 10 years and have an alum as president who agrees with these statements. Any attempt to return them as a public school will be met with resistance unless we get the local Tidewater Tribal Nations to back the move.

Anyone who thinks that the administration is anything other than PC, left leaning is asleep. We lost any chance with Nichols doing moronic things with an agenda to destroy tradition without regard to the alumni. Now well rounded students are turned away while we bring in a much more diverse yet intellectually oriented student body. That's just the way it is. Any different thinking comes with who's next as President. It will be either more of the same or something else.

To my knowledge, the issue with Native American mascots and such came down from the NCAA to basically any school that had that type of mascot. I was a student when the feathers were yanked and we were told that the decision was made to not fight it since during any lawsuits the ability to host certain events and participate in some things would be jeopardized; a.k.a. would not be fair to the current athletes. I know people have very strong feelings about Gene Nichol, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any administrator who would make a different decision. This is illustrated by the other schools around the country that followed suit (University of North Dakota comes to mind off hand). My understanding is that schools like Utah or FSU get around this rule because they are granted explicit permission by the tribe who aligns with their mascot. Since Virginia, until very recently, did not have any formal tribe recognized, no one could give WM that permission. Furthermore since we were not aligned with any specific tribe it would be a hard sell. Unless we wanted to change our name to the William and Mary Fightin' Powhatan Confederacy...it does have a nice ring to it!

That's funny. Thanks for the yuk.

This list is so promising, with so much history involved, with so much academic stuff that could result, that some one associated with W&M needs to make this happen:

https://www.nps.gov/jame/learn/historycu...tribes.htm

(06-23-2017 07:54 AM)Tribe32 Wrote: [ -> ]Now well rounded students are turned away while we bring in a much more diverse yet intellectually oriented student body. That's just the way it is.

Feathers and Gene Nichol aside: I don't think diverse is mutually exclusive from well-rounded.

I'd argue that we are admitting a well-rounded, diverse, intellectually-oriented student body.