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At some point we will need to stand up and stop the tail from wagging the dog. This is nonsense and simply part of the ongoing attack on religion.
In high school, we had a moment to reflect. The UT alumni was not forced
to pray, but it is his obvious attempt to force others not to exercise their right.
(05-27-2015 07:18 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]At some point we will need to stand up and stop the tail from wagging the dog. This is nonsense and simply part of the ongoing attack on religion.
In high school, we had a moment to reflect. The UT alumni was not forced
to pray, but it is his obvious attempt to force others not to exercise their right.

Amen.
Good for the Coach Campbell and the football team. I hope all the athletic teams at UT take a time to be "thankful" for the opportunity to participate in intercollegiate athletics. Very, very few get that opportunity.
Interesting. I was always surprised about the prayers before games. Very few prayers cover all the possible religious permutations on a team (and none cover atheists), so why do something that excludes some of your "brothers"? Not sure it's that big a deal but if, say, a Jewish or Islamic player is expected to say a prayer based in Christianity, I see THAT as an attack on religion. Not sure it's that big a deal and I hope there is no expectation that all pray. On the other hand, I hate to see us change anything we're doing before the BG games....
I am a Catholic like Campbell, but don't agree that prayers or religion should have anything to do with sports at UT.

For some reason it seems to be a "football coach" thing because I've seen prayers from many previous Toledo coaches on the field. Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer to his disciples, so it certainly is an affirmation of Christianity.

Mike O'Brien is in the locker room before games all of the time; he should know better.

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817
(05-27-2015 07:49 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting. I was always surprised about the prayers before games. Very few prayers cover all the possible religious permutations on a team (and none cover atheists), so why do something that excludes some of your "brothers"? Not sure it's that big a deal but if, say, a Jewish or Islamic player is expected to say a prayer based in Christianity, I see THAT as an attack on religion. Not sure it's that big a deal and I hope there is no expectation that all pray. On the other hand, I hate to see us change anything we're doing before the BG games....

Let those that want to pray participate and then those that do not have a moment to reflect. It is not forced prayer with repercussions. We use to have a leader from different faiths lead the moment. Better to learn respect for everyone than being intolerant for all but one.
What a joke.

What has happened to our country over the past few years? Totally ridiculous.

Here's my solution, have a player lead the team prayer and then have the coach mail a Christmas card to this Wisconsin group.
A possible solution: the players and coaches all have a moment of silent prayer. This way, everyone can pray and reflect in their own way.
Question: If Mattbar al-Campbell was your coach and he whipped out a bunch of prayer rugs, and knelt towards Mecca and lead the team in praying Al-Fatiha (or something similar), would you'be fine with that?
From their website:
"The history of Western Civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion."

Their endgame is obvious.
(05-27-2015 09:00 AM)Redwingtom Wrote: [ -> ]Question: If Mattbar al-Campbell was your coach and he whipped out a bunch of prayer rugs, and knelt towards Mecca and lead the team in praying Al-Fatiha (or something similar), would you'be fine with that?

If the winning count over bg continued to grow???? Yep!!!!!!!!!
(05-27-2015 07:43 AM)letsgoblue Wrote: [ -> ]Good for the Coach Campbell and the football team. I hope all the athletic teams at UT take a time to be "thankful" for the opportunity to participate in intercollegiate athletics. Very, very few get that opportunity.

Just more b.s. from people who do not believe in god.
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(05-27-2015 06:15 AM)SylvaniaRocket Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.bcsn.tv/news_article/show/519125

GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!
(05-27-2015 08:01 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote: [ -> ]I am a Catholic like Campbell, but don't agree that prayers or religion should have anything to do with sports at UT.

For some reason it seems to be a "football coach" thing because I've seen prayers from many previous Toledo coaches on the field. Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer to his disciples, so it certainly is an affirmation of Christianity.

Mike O'Brien is in the locker room before games all of the time; he should know better.

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817

I'm confused by your response.... a clarification please. Are you agreeing with the nut jobs from Wisconsin?
(05-27-2015 07:49 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting. I was always surprised about the prayers before games. Very few prayers cover all the possible religious permutations on a team (and none cover atheists), so why do something that excludes some of your "brothers"? Not sure it's that big a deal but if, say, a Jewish or Islamic player is expected to say a prayer based in Christianity, I see THAT as an attack on religion. Not sure it's that big a deal and I hope there is no expectation that all pray. On the other hand, I hate to see us change anything we're doing before the BG games....

I'm Jewish and had to say the Lord's prayer when I went to elementary school in NJ. Never thought that saying the prayer was an attack on my religion! Still don't and I've had more than 60 years to think about it. I was never forced to participate and I did so out of respect for others. Maybe that's the problem in today's world....very little empathy for the feelings of other people!
Well, the next 99 days should go fast...
(05-27-2015 10:15 AM)Steve in NJ Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-27-2015 07:49 AM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting. I was always surprised about the prayers before games. Very few prayers cover all the possible religious permutations on a team (and none cover atheists), so why do something that excludes some of your "brothers"? Not sure it's that big a deal but if, say, a Jewish or Islamic player is expected to say a prayer based in Christianity, I see THAT as an attack on religion. Not sure it's that big a deal and I hope there is no expectation that all pray. On the other hand, I hate to see us change anything we're doing before the BG games....

I'm Jewish and had to say the Lord's prayer when I went to elementary school in NJ. Never thought that saying the prayer was an attack on my religion! Still don't and I've had more than 60 years to think about it. I was never forced to participate and I did so out of respect for others. Maybe that's the problem in today's world....very little empathy for the feelings of other people!

Well, it's fine that being required to say the Lord's Prayer doesn't bother you, but if someone wanted me to say a Muslim prayer before participating in a game, it would bother me. Not that the players HAD to say any prayer, but I'm responding to your comment about having to say the Lord's Prayer. And when you say that people today have "very little empathy for the feelings of other people," wouldn't that apply to Coach Campbell, who is leading an entire group of people in a prayer specific to Campbell's religion, without empathy for how that might affect non-believers.

The people from Wisconsin may or may not be nut jobs. I'm not interested in taking the time to find out. But not everyone who supports separation of church and state is a nut job.

I certainly don't see any ill intent here from the coach. He was sharing something that is important to him, and maybe he just didn't think enough about the fact that it was inappropriate at a public university and that it might make some players uncomfortable.
I'm with H2O here. As long as it's truly an optional prayer, I see no problem with this.

This same group went after the Clemson football team last summer, but there was a lot more going on at Clemson. Clemson has/had (not sure if they've loosened the religious requirements for players since being called out) church days, "non-mandatory" religious breakfasts where coaches kept track of players who didn't attend, and bible study sessions at football facilities.
This group is absolutely correct that a prayer led by the head coach during pregame activities is inappropriate. Whether Christians like it or not, we no longer live in a mostly homogeneous religious society and leading prayers from one religion to the exclusion of all other beliefs is unacceptable. I would suggest that they either remove expressions of faith from team activities (preferred remedy) or rotate them to fully include all the religious points of view represented on the team and led by visiting clergy or an appropriate player. I also find little objection to voluntary prayer led by students after the team and coaches officially leave the locker room, making it clear that it's not official team activity nor expected mandatory participation. Maintaining current policy creates a hostile and exclusionary environment for those of different beliefs and a clear path to potential litigation regarding official prayers in a public institution. There are quite clear precedents to look to in remedying this situation.
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