Mizzou fans: Are there any plans in the works for Mizzou to get Kansas and Kansas St back on the schedule sometime in the future in football and/or basketball? The reason I'm asking this is because when I watched the Kansas vs New Mexico game on ESPN last weekend I noticed that the game was played at a neutral court, the Sprint Center in Kansas City Missouri. I find it interesting that with how bitter Kansas was after mizzou left for the sec that Kansas actually played a game in the state of Missouri. I remember hearing things from the Missouri Gov or Senators about how much revenues the state of Missouri would lose if Mizzou stopped playing Kansas and Kansas St in football and basketball--and Kansas schools bascially gave them the finger--so I'm kind of surprised to see Kansas playing a game in a state they currently "hate" Anyone fill me in please? Thanks!
I'm sure Medic will answer soon, but there are definitely hard feelings from KU/KSU toward Mizzou in the same way that UT/TT feel toward TAMU. Time will tell if they get over the conference switch.
It was Missouri's wish to continue both the football and BB series, but Kansas said we moved on, so they did too. The KU coach seemed really angry at our "divorce" from the Big XII, saying they just didn't need us on their schedule. I hope cooler heads prevail, and we renew the series. BewareThePhog is a very good Jayhawk poster on the boards. You might send him a message. We have very productive conversations about this often.
As a bystander yet outsider to the KSU/MU series, there never seemed to be a lot of vitriol or engagement in that rivalry. MU hated KU, and KSU hated KU, but there didn't seem to be much energy between KSU and MU. As to whether they'll resume that series, I think it depends on when and whether their interests converge. I'll leave that discussion to others.
As for MU/KU, it is correct that MU has offered to play KU and KU has declined to play. There are a number of dynamics that go into it and the whole instability of the Big 12 is a long story. With the teams no longer being in the same conference, that means each side has to evaluate resuming the series through the lens of strategic and common interests. Since the same applies for KU and all 4 schools that have left the Big 12, I'll look at all 4 through that same lens, which is also informed by our status as a school with an elite hoops team and a dumpster-fire of a football team:
KU/Nebraska. Very long-term conference mates with a shared border, with no animosity between us. At the same time, there's not a compelling reason on either side to play. NU owned KU in football in very lopsided fashion, and the same is true for KU owning NU in basketball. Neither side is seen as a fertile recruiting area for the other, so ultimately there's no big reason to play and the series have not been renewed.
KU/aTM. Short-term conference mates with no shared border, with neither animosity nor much shared history between us. There's no value in our football team being curb-stomped by theirs, nor is there much value in our basketball team picking up a win over theirs. We have multiple Texas schools remaining on our slate, so the primary value of recruiting exposure in TX is essentially nullified.
KU/CU. Long-term conference mates with a shared border, with no animosity between us. While we haven't renewed the football series (I doubt either side sees value in it), we have renewed the basketball series for several reasons. One, our alumni in Denver had long valued that game as a chance to see the team play in person (although CU has taken steps to mitigate that and prevent their arena from being filled with a lot of KU fans). CU's coach is a former KU player. From CU's side, not only does their coach have ties to KU, but they also likely see value in playing a prominent hoops school (particularly when they get a win like they recently did.)
KU/MU. Ah, here's the rub. Yes, there are people at KU who are irked that MU's move diminished the conference. At the same time, you have to look at what it would bring to each side.
In overall terms, while it was their move that caused the initial discontinuity in the series, simply making the offer wins MU PR points, not just among national media but also specifically in the KC/North and Western MO areas of the state that have less affinity to SEC culture than the St. Louis/South and Eastern areas of the state. It also allows MU to pursue their strategic interests directly, while being able to put KU on the defensive of being asked why we choose not to play.
But if you look at football, right now our primary concern is just righting a ship that has bottomed out just a few years after winning a BCS bowl. With only 3 non-conference games available, the last thing we need on the schedule is an SEC team. From a recruiting perspective, we still have enough exposure in the KC area to keep us in front of players, and we probably don't see the SE area of MO as being rich ground moving forward with MU's move to the SEC. So there's little or no gain for us here.
As for basketball, playing MU really doesn't gain us anything. We are able to schedule high-profile games on major networks against the likes of Kentucky, Michigan State, Duke, Georgetown, and others. We recruit nationally, so we're not focused on being able to recruit specifically in MO, and even more so than in football we have exposure not just in the KC/NW MO area, but statewide since we play a lot of nationally broadcast games. As elitist as it sounds, on some level choosing not to schedule MU isn't dissimilar to choosing not to play Wichita State, as the upside for winning a game wouldn't balance the downside for a loss. (On that note, Bill Self is 15-4 against MU all time, so it's not as though we're "ducking" someone we see as a threat - it's just that the upside doesn't match the downside, making it less compelling of a matchup from our perspective.) Conversely, it's no surprise MU wants to play, because they get exposure against a quality opponent, and if they win it's a big upside, and if they don't it's likely still a boost to their RPI.
Finally, aside from our specific programs' direct strategic needs, there simply isn't the demand for this game from the fanbase. Whether it's from "hurt feelings", apathy, or the alignment of the stars is irrelevant - if the fans aren't pressuring the AD to get them on the schedule, the AD isn't going to direct his coaches to do so. I'd also suspect that with the specter of additional realignment on the horizon, and given the chance that the SEC isn't a particularly likely landing spot, our athletic department is worried a lot more about getting our ducks in a row and cultivating relationships in the B1G than they are about getting MU on the schedule.
By not evaluating these matchups in terms of shared history rather than in terms of strategic interests, is this yet another blow to "tradition" of college sports? Perhaps. But that ship has long since sailed to the Port of Financial Gain.
Edited to add: in reading this post after a few offline revisions, I realize that it may come across as being overly dismissive of MU's hoops program. That is certainly not my intent. MU does have a good program.
Also, I realize I left out one point. While Sprint Center is in Missouri and playing games there is good for the state of MO, the KC area in general is home to many KU fans, so the overall economic health of the city is a strategic interest of ours, even if tax dollars from our games on that side of the state line don't come to KS.
(12-18-2013 10:55 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote: [ -> ]It was Missouri's wish to continue both the football and BB series, but Kansas said we moved on, so they did too. The KU coach seemed really angry at our "divorce" from the Big XII, saying they just didn't need us on their schedule. I hope cooler heads prevail, and we renew the series. BewareThePhog is a very good Jayhawk poster on the boards. You might send him a message. We have very productive conversations about this often.
I'd seen the thread - I was just busy being long-winded.
billybobby, Medic may not see eye-to-eye with me on all the points I made above, but he's definitely a good and thoughtful resource for all questions related to MU.
Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
(12-18-2013 12:04 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote: [ -> ]As a bystander yet outsider to the KSU/MU series, there never seemed to be a lot of vitriol or engagement in that rivalry. MU hated KU, and KSU hated KU, but there didn't seem to be much energy between KSU and MU. As to whether they'll resume that series, I think it depends on when and whether their interests converge. I'll leave that discussion to others.
As for MU/KU, it is correct that MU has offered to play KU and KU has declined to play. There are a number of dynamics that go into it and the whole instability of the Big 12 is a long story. With the teams no longer being in the same conference, that means each side has to evaluate resuming the series through the lens of strategic and common interests. Since the same applies for KU and all 4 schools that have left the Big 12, I'll look at all 4 through that same lens, which is also informed by our status as a school with an elite hoops team and a dumpster-fire of a football team:
Outstanding response! You helped me as much as you could with the dynamics of this whole thing! Yes, I hated to see the Great Conference
KU/Nebraska. Very long-term conference mates with a shared border, with no animosity between us. At the same time, there's not a compelling reason on either side to play. NU owned KU in football in very lopsided fashion, and the same is true for KU owning NU in basketball. Neither side is seen as a fertile recruiting area for the other, so ultimately there's no big reason to play and the series have not been renewed.
KU/aTM. Short-term conference mates with no shared border, with neither animosity nor much shared history between us. There's no value in our football team being curb-stomped by theirs, nor is there much value in our basketball team picking up a win over theirs. We have multiple Texas schools remaining on our slate, so the primary value of recruiting exposure in TX is essentially nullified.
KU/CU. Long-term conference mates with a shared border, with no animosity between us. While we haven't renewed the football series (I doubt either side sees value in it), we have renewed the basketball series for several reasons. One, our alumni in Denver had long valued that game as a chance to see the team play in person (although CU has taken steps to mitigate that and prevent their arena from being filled with a lot of KU fans). CU's coach is a former KU player. From CU's side, not only does their coach have ties to KU, but they also likely see value in playing a prominent hoops school (particularly when they get a win like they recently did.)
KU/MU. Ah, here's the rub. Yes, there are people at KU who are irked that MU's move diminished the conference. At the same time, you have to look at what it would bring to each side.
In overall terms, while it was their move that caused the initial discontinuity in the series, simply making the offer wins MU PR points, not just among national media but also specifically in the KC/North and Western MO areas of the state that have less affinity to SEC culture than the St. Louis/South and Eastern areas of the state. It also allows MU to pursue their strategic interests directly, while being able to put KU on the defensive of being asked why we choose not to play.
But if you look at football, right now our primary concern is just righting a ship that has bottomed out just a few years after winning a BCS bowl. With only 3 non-conference games available, the last thing we need on the schedule is an SEC team. From a recruiting perspective, we still have enough exposure in the KC area to keep us in front of players, and we probably don't see the SE area of MO as being rich ground moving forward with MU's move to the SEC. So there's little or no gain for us here.
As for basketball, playing MU really doesn't gain us anything. We are able to schedule high-profile games on major networks against the likes of Kentucky, Michigan State, Duke, Georgetown, and others. We recruit nationally, so we're not focused on being able to recruit specifically in MO, and even more so than in football we have exposure not just in the KC/NW MO area, but statewide since we play a lot of nationally broadcast games. As elitist as it sounds, on some level choosing not to schedule MU isn't dissimilar to choosing not to play Wichita State, as the upside for winning a game wouldn't balance the downside for a loss. (On that note, Bill Self is 15-4 against MU all time, so it's not as though we're "ducking" someone we see as a threat - it's just that the upside doesn't match the downside, making it less compelling of a matchup from our perspective.) Conversely, it's no surprise MU wants to play, because they get exposure against a quality opponent, and if they win it's a big upside, and if they don't it's likely still a boost to their RPI.
Finally, aside from our specific programs' direct strategic needs, there simply isn't the demand for this game from the fanbase. Whether it's from "hurt feelings", apathy, or the alignment of the stars is irrelevant - if the fans aren't pressuring the AD to get them on the schedule, the AD isn't going to direct his coaches to do so. I'd also suspect that with the specter of additional realignment on the horizon, and given the chance that the SEC isn't a particularly likely landing spot, our athletic department is worried a lot more about getting our ducks in a row and cultivating relationships in the B1G than they are about getting MU on the schedule.
By not evaluating these matchups in terms of shared history rather than in terms of strategic interests, is this yet another blow to "tradition" of college sports? Perhaps. But that ship has long since sailed to the Port of Financial Gain.
Outstanding response! Thanks; you obviously know you're stuff
(12-18-2013 12:14 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
We obviously have shared history with Kentucky, so I'm glad we're in the tournament together to keep that connection going. I do think that it would be good for us to play B1G opponents like the ones you named. I'd also love to get Indiana on the slate, since that's another fanbase that is really avid about basketball.
(12-18-2013 12:18 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2013 12:14 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
We obviously have shared history with Kentucky, so I'm glad we're in the tournament together to keep that connection going. I do think that it would be good for us to play B1G opponents like the ones you named. I'd also love to get Indiana on the slate, since that's another fanbase that is really avid about basketball.
Kansas to the B1G is one of the last potential moves that makes complete sense without any hesitations. Whichever new conference potentially accepts Oklahoma, Texas, UNC, or UVA will experience a long time before they feel that those schools are totally on board and completely happy to be there.
Anytime Kentucky gets to play Kansas is a positive thing, and it usually turns out to be a great game. If this Tier 1/D4/whatever we call it materializes, I think that they match-ups of historically powerful programs who care deeply about their school and state is going to be the most positive effect. Even Rupp Arena is seeing a decrease in student attendance for the filler home basketball games. Expectations for quality competition and entertainment are higher than ever, so getting to meet up with other blue bloods will be a positive effect.
Long term my suspicion is that Kansas/Mizzou returns in basketball most of the time and football on occasion. Football is just going to be too difficult for KU from a scheduling standpoint. They have 9 conference games. Assuming they want 7 home games every year (or at the least 6.5/7.5 with a neutral site as before), playing Mizzou every year would pretty much mean no other out of conference road games.
The predicament is the exact same one Texas would have with Texas A&M and none of that even gets into the fact that both schools fanbases are angry and aren't going to want to give their now SEC rivals an inch. That will slide back down at some point, but the scheduling issues won't.
Edit: I'll add that loosing The Border War was the saddest rivalry for me to see go. I've always thought of college football along state lines and the battle between states was always more interesting to me than the battles within states and I especially love it when there is history outside of just football. Kansas-Missouri had all of that.
(12-18-2013 12:07 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2013 10:55 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote: [ -> ]It was Missouri's wish to continue both the football and BB series, but Kansas said we moved on, so they did too. The KU coach seemed really angry at our "divorce" from the Big XII, saying they just didn't need us on their schedule. I hope cooler heads prevail, and we renew the series. BewareThePhog is a very good Jayhawk poster on the boards. You might send him a message. We have very productive conversations about this often.
I'd seen the thread - I was just busy being long-winded.
billybobby, Medic may not see eye-to-eye with me on all the points I made above, but he's definitely a good and thoughtful resource for all questions related to MU.
Thanks BTP. Kansas, like Missouri has to weigh their strategic interests. The KU/MU football game to me lost a lot when they moved it to Arrowhead. If they ever agree to play again, I hope it is a home-home series. You are correct that the KSU-MU series was never as big a deal as KU-MU. I guess a lot of us "ground-level" fans just see what Saturday brings each week. We have no idea, regarding the strategic interests or financial aims of any given university. Sometimes the coaching staffs are drawn into the fray while being interviewed, etc. which is in no way the official stance of the university. If the SEC and Big XII ever form a BB tourney between the two conferences, we might again see a good KU/MU game, which would be in both schools' best interests. Seems like more and more conferences are doing this now.
(12-18-2013 12:18 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2013 12:14 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
We obviously have shared history with Kentucky, so I'm glad we're in the tournament together to keep that connection going. I do think that it would be good for us to play B1G opponents like the ones you named. I'd also love to get Indiana on the slate, since that's another fanbase that is really avid about basketball.
We Indiana Fans would take Kansas in a New York minute. Almost every BIG basketball venue is packed and loud. Purdue, I'll, Mich State, Wisky, Ohio St. and Iowa are also hard places to win. Go ahead and bring OK & Texas also to fill out our Western Division.
KU will be just fine no matter what happens to the Little 10 in the future. Every remaining Power Conference would say yes to adding Jayhawk basketball to their conference and gain an AAU school.
Heck, I even have them in my fantasy perfect SEC:
![[Image: SECawesome_zps97fb1d2d.jpg]](http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l509/10thmountain1/SECawesome_zps97fb1d2d.jpg)
(12-18-2013 12:14 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
A new item for the "Kansas Cultivates Relationships with the B1G" folder has just arrived - we've just inked a deal to play Illinois in a home-and-home football series. It doesn't start until 2023, but it may be reflective of our athletic department's long-term strategy. We also play Rutgers next year, but I have to think that was scheduled prior to Rutgers' invitation to the B1G.
(01-08-2014 09:54 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2013 12:14 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
A new item for the "Kansas Cultivates Relationships with the B1G" folder has just arrived - we've just inked a deal to play Illinois in a home-and-home football series. It doesn't start until 2023, but it may be reflective of our athletic department's long-term strategy. We also play Rutgers next year, but I have to think that was scheduled prior to Rutgers' invitation to the B1G.
Yes, great move by Kansas. You all to the B1G feels as natural as Colorado to the PAC and TAMU to the SEC. Showing interest in a Nebraska home and home is something any school would do, but going with Illinois shows the B1G that you want to compete with the harder programs to sell for OOC events.
I think KU and MU will play again once things stabilize, at least in BB. Football is so much harder to schedule for a lot of reasons mentioned here. I think right now KU is not happy that MU left and destabilized the B12 further after the defections of NU and CU. Texas probably feels similarly towards A&M. All the flagships without little brothers left the conference (I consider A&M a flagship because Texas is so big and they fit the mold, though Texas is THE flagship) and now UT, OU and KU have to support a lot of less valuable schools on their own. Without a little brother school to consider, I think OU and KU would already have moved. Texas likes being a king so who knows about them. Once conference realignment shakes out and KU either finds a power conference home or the B12 stabilizes and thrives again, I think KU/MU will resume in some form. Probably the same with UT and A&M.
(01-29-2014 04:17 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote: [ -> ]I think KU and MU will play again once things stabilize, at least in BB. Football is so much harder to schedule for a lot of reasons mentioned here. I think right now KU is not happy that MU left and destabilized the B12 further after the defections of NU and CU. Texas probably feels similarly towards A&M. All the flagships without little brothers left the conference (I consider A&M a flagship because Texas is so big and they fit the mold, though Texas is THE flagship) and now UT, OU and KU have to support a lot of less valuable schools on their own. Without a little brother school to consider, I think OU and KU would already have moved. Texas likes being a king so who knows about them. Once conference realignment shakes out and KU either finds a power conference home or the B12 stabilizes and thrives again, I think KU/MU will resume in some form. Probably the same with UT and A&M.
Yes, very true. I'm curious... was there ever any talk in your area about where Kansas, Oklahoma, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, or Iowa State would have preferred to end up? Is there ever rumblings about any of them wanting into the SEC? I would think that Oklahoma State would be the only school that would have the SEC as their #1 destination, although Kansas State has to know that they are not getting a Big 10 invite. Surely they would prefer the SEC over the PAC.
(01-08-2014 10:41 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ] (01-08-2014 09:54 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2013 12:14 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]Great insight, Phog. It is sad seeing outside issues affecting old rivalries (like UK and Indiana's basketball issues), but it is part of the new order of things. It completely makes sense for Kansas to get ramped up for a B1G invite. I would think that playing home and home basketball games with schools Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska would bring about some goodwill.
A new item for the "Kansas Cultivates Relationships with the B1G" folder has just arrived - we've just inked a deal to play Illinois in a home-and-home football series. It doesn't start until 2023, but it may be reflective of our athletic department's long-term strategy. We also play Rutgers next year, but I have to think that was scheduled prior to Rutgers' invitation to the B1G.
Yes, great move by Kansas. You all to the B1G feels as natural as Colorado to the PAC and TAMU to the SEC. Showing interest in a Nebraska home and home is something any school would do, but going with Illinois shows the B1G that you want to compete with the harder programs to sell for OOC events.
I was under the impression that KU just didn't have scheduling room for an OOC game with Mizzou... While I also see this as a possible gesture to the B1G by Kansas for a future invite by the B1G, it does render the OOC scheduling excuse invalid. I see this as maybe a back door slight to Missouri. Missouri scheduled a B1G team, Indiana this year, and I doubt we are planning any conference moves. That said, schools have to choose the business plan that best suits their interests. If the Jayhawks were in anyway interested in the SEC I think they would schedule Mizzou, so this seems to point away from that issue.