CSNbbs

You guys need to check out this article/thread on the main board:

http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=654248

It would be a fantastic edition.

(10-11-2013 09:45 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: [ -> ]It would be a fantastic edition.

Absolutely. The states of North Carolina and Virginia need to be in the fold. I think the Clemson-UGA game and the upcoming Bristol game between UT and Virginia Tech are going to be excellent reference points for UNC and UVA alumni/fans to see what could be. That UNC-USC was also a great experience, and it appears that UNC got up for that game more than any other based on their results this season.

(10-11-2013 10:19 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 09:45 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: [ -> ]It would be a fantastic edition.

Absolutely. The states of North Carolina and Virginia need to be in the fold. I think the Clemson-UGA game and the upcoming Bristol game between UT and Virginia Tech are going to be excellent reference points for UNC and UVA alumni/fans to see what could be. That UNC-USC was also a great experience, and it appears that UNC got up for that game more than any other based on their results this season.

I agree 100%, however that window has closed for now. Now the issue is what becomes of the Big 12? The only way the Carolina window opens again soon is if the PAC takes 8 big 12 teams to move to 20. ESPN can't or won't get a network off of the ground for the ACC. And, the Big 10 and SEC uses the deficit projected income that the ACC would suffer without a network to leverage 6 teams each to their respective conferences. It takes 12 teams to dissolve the ACC GOR and the conference. That is currently the only path to this end. Should the Big 10 and SEC either or both take members of the Big 12 into the fold then I highly doubt that North Carolina or any other ACC team will find its way into the fold any time soon. Unless....after the D4 is established and all of the ACC and Big 12 teams are guaranteed spots, and the revenue is comparable to that of other conferences, there is an alignment of peer institutions where Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, and North Carolina are free to move because the compensation is relatively equal, and because getting left behind can't be argued as devaluing the remaining programs, and by actual result of the net effect the GOR would no longer have any real teeth.

If the PAC does that I'd put money on many in the ACC joining us in the SEC.

(10-11-2013 02:38 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 10:19 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 09:45 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: [ -> ]It would be a fantastic edition.

Absolutely. The states of North Carolina and Virginia need to be in the fold. I think the Clemson-UGA game and the upcoming Bristol game between UT and Virginia Tech are going to be excellent reference points for UNC and UVA alumni/fans to see what could be. That UNC-USC was also a great experience, and it appears that UNC got up for that game more than any other based on their results this season.

I agree 100%, however that window has closed for now. Now the issue is what becomes of the Big 12? The only way the Carolina window opens again soon is if the PAC takes 8 big 12 teams to move to 20. ESPN can't or won't get a network off of the ground for the ACC. And, the Big 10 and SEC uses the deficit projected income that the ACC would suffer without a network to leverage 6 teams each to their respective conferences. It takes 12 teams to dissolve the ACC GOR and the conference. That is currently the only path to this end. Should the Big 10 and SEC either or both take members of the Big 12 into the fold then I highly doubt that North Carolina or any other ACC team will find its way into the fold any time soon. Unless....after the D4 is established and all of the ACC and Big 12 teams are guaranteed spots, and the revenue is comparable to that of other conferences, there is an alignment of peer institutions where Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, and North Carolina are free to move because the compensation is relatively equal, and because getting left behind can't be argued as devaluing the remaining programs, and by actual result of the net effect the GOR would no longer have any real teeth.

Good points, JR, but is there any way that the PAC takes 8 members of the Big 12 unless Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas are all a part of it? They are not talking WVU (or, at least, WVU should not agree to it), so that leaves only one of the existing members on the outs. Maybe they are appeased by K-State and letting Kansas go to the Big 10.

The PAC is in a tough spot. Say Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas each went somewhere other than that PAC. Do they really want Kansas State? I would be inclined to bring in New Mexico and groom them rather than play second fiddle is a state as small as Kansas. I can see some value in Texas Tech if they will start pumping the gas on academics, especially if they bridged to them through an all around improved New Mexico.

(10-11-2013 03:03 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 02:38 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 10:19 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 09:45 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: [ -> ]It would be a fantastic edition.

Absolutely. The states of North Carolina and Virginia need to be in the fold. I think the Clemson-UGA game and the upcoming Bristol game between UT and Virginia Tech are going to be excellent reference points for UNC and UVA alumni/fans to see what could be. That UNC-USC was also a great experience, and it appears that UNC got up for that game more than any other based on their results this season.

I agree 100%, however that window has closed for now. Now the issue is what becomes of the Big 12? The only way the Carolina window opens again soon is if the PAC takes 8 big 12 teams to move to 20. ESPN can't or won't get a network off of the ground for the ACC. And, the Big 10 and SEC uses the deficit projected income that the ACC would suffer without a network to leverage 6 teams each to their respective conferences. It takes 12 teams to dissolve the ACC GOR and the conference. That is currently the only path to this end. Should the Big 10 and SEC either or both take members of the Big 12 into the fold then I highly doubt that North Carolina or any other ACC team will find its way into the fold any time soon. Unless....after the D4 is established and all of the ACC and Big 12 teams are guaranteed spots, and the revenue is comparable to that of other conferences, there is an alignment of peer institutions where Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia, and North Carolina are free to move because the compensation is relatively equal, and because getting left behind can't be argued as devaluing the remaining programs, and by actual result of the net effect the GOR would no longer have any real teeth.

Good points, JR, but is there any way that the PAC takes 8 members of the Big 12 unless Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas are all a part of it? They are not talking WVU (or, at least, WVU should not agree to it), so that leaves only one of the existing members on the outs. Maybe they are appeased by K-State and letting Kansas go to the Big 10.

The PAC is in a tough spot. Say Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas each went somewhere other than that PAC. Do they really want Kansas State? I would be inclined to bring in New Mexico and groom them rather than play second fiddle is a state as small as Kansas. I can see some value in Texas Tech if they will start pumping the gas on academics, especially if they bridged to them through an all around improved New Mexico.

No the PAC would not and should not take eight unless they can land Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. I would think their 8 would be these:
Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, T.C.U., Texas, and Texas Tech. That's half of Iowa, all of Kansas, all of Oklahoma, and all of Texas including specifically West Texas, Dallas, and the Gulf coast of Texas. T.C.U. would pass the PAC academic freedom guidelines, Baylor might not, but should.

With those out of the way the SEC would try for North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, Georgia Tech, Clemson and F.S.U. but what I think we would have to settle for would Virginia, North Carolina, N.C. State, Georgia Tech, Clemson and Florida State, unless Virginia pitched a fit over Virginia Tech and then I think Georgia Tech would draw the short straw.

JR, your proposition puts Baylor with Miami, Wake Forest, and possibly Georgia Tech, which is not that bad all things being considered. Tulane probably gets the add to such a conference assuming the BIG takes a big enough bite out of the northern ACC schools to shift the league to the South. I would think we settle as you showed for both UVA and Va. Tech if it came down to it. It is very hard to see UVA coming to the SEC unless Va. Tech went to the B1G. In all likelihood, the opposite would happen, and we get Va. Tech while the B1G gets UVA if a split is absolutely required. Same for a UNC/NC State situation.

At 20, one thing I know is that FSU and Clemson need to be in the fold. Even our best case scenario years down the road involves Texas, Oklahoma, UNC, and UVA coming on board. At that point, the options are WVU or doubling up in an existing footprint. If we are going to double, it should be for FSU and Clemson if we can control it.

(10-11-2013 03:54 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote: [ -> ]JR, your proposition puts Baylor with Miami, Wake Forest, and possibly Georgia Tech, which is not that bad all things being considered. Tulane probably gets the add to such a conference assuming the BIG takes a big enough bite out of the northern ACC schools to shift the league to the South. I would think we settle as you showed for both UVA and Va. Tech if it came down to it. It is very hard to see UVA coming to the SEC unless Va. Tech went to the B1G. In all likelihood, the opposite would happen, and we get Va. Tech while the B1G gets UVA if a split is absolutely required. Same for a UNC/NC State situation.

At 20, one thing I know is that FSU and Clemson need to be in the fold. Even our best case scenario years down the road involves Texas, Oklahoma, UNC, and UVA coming on board. At that point, the options are WVU or doubling up in an existing footprint. If we are going to double, it should be for FSU and Clemson if we can control it.

I totally agree. But, BBB, if the SEC moves to just 18 it is possible to get Texas, Oklahoma, Virginia and North Carolina. You divide the Big 12 up to end it. Then once Va & UNC know that their conference mates made it into D4 and the values are relatively equal, you use the presence of Florida, A&M, Vandy, Texas, OU, and Missouri to attract a Virginia and North Carolina who no longer shoulder the burden of keeping things together to try to get their old conference mates into the upper tier. Upper tier inclusion will make movement more possible instead of less possible, at least initially.

In an 18 member conference model Kansas, Boston College, Syracuse, and Notre Dame make a lot more sense for the Big 10.

Then you form a new Eastern Conference of:

Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, West Virginia

Clemson, Duke, Georgia Tech, Florida State, N.C. State, Wake Forest

Baylor, B.Y.U., Iowa State, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Miami

I think Texas Tech and T.C.U. would wind up in a PAC conference that would initially move to 14, and then would spend time to develop New Mexico and Nevada before bringing them on board.

UNC wasn't leaning SEC. Their fans were.

(10-11-2013 08:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote: [ -> ]UNC wasn't leaning SEC. Their fans were.

He1nous the talks had reached the point where Slive had agreed to take Duke as their partner if it happened. Virginia at that point would likely have gone Big 10.

(10-11-2013 09:13 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 08:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote: [ -> ]UNC wasn't leaning SEC. Their fans were.

He1nous the talks had reached the point where Slive had agreed to take Duke as their partner if it happened. Virginia at that point would likely have gone Big 10.

And yet, UNC didn't move. They had complete fan and alumni support for the move and yet they still didn't move.

That is why one can surmise that the folks in charge did not want to move to the SEC. Overwhelming negativity towards a move to the Big Ten certainly put a kibosh on any such talks but what reasoning is there for not moving to the SEC? Admin was worried, fans were all about a move to the SEC. Many big names within the Tarheel hierarchy were worried and were advising a move to either the Big Ten or the SEC. Why exactly didn't UNC move to the SEC?

The only reasonable option is that it would seem Admin and Faculty were against the move and that left the ACC to be solidified.

I am not attacking the quality of the SEC in this, I am not taking a Big Ten vs SEC stance in terms of arguing "UNC loves us more". I would say UNC probably loved the idea of continuing with having the Conference Commissioner of the Conference they belong to being a UNC guy.

There were too many cultural issues in the end for a move to either the Big Ten or SEC and thus the ACC was solidified.

If anyone leaves the ACC, it will be Clemson and FSU. But that won't happen until sometime after their GoR expires, if at all...

(10-11-2013 09:28 PM)He1nousOne Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 09:13 PM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-11-2013 08:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote: [ -> ]UNC wasn't leaning SEC. Their fans were.

He1nous the talks had reached the point where Slive had agreed to take Duke as their partner if it happened. Virginia at that point would likely have gone Big 10.

And yet, UNC didn't move. They had complete fan and alumni support for the move and yet they still didn't move.

That is why one can surmise that the folks in charge did not want to move to the SEC. Overwhelming negativity towards a move to the Big Ten certainly put a kibosh on any such talks but what reasoning is there for not moving to the SEC? Admin was worried, fans were all about a move to the SEC. Many big names within the Tarheel hierarchy were worried and were advising a move to either the Big Ten or the SEC. Why exactly didn't UNC move to the SEC?

The only reasonable option is that it would seem Admin and Faculty were against the move and that left the ACC to be solidified.

I am not attacking the quality of the SEC in this, I am not taking a Big Ten vs SEC stance in terms of arguing "UNC loves us more". I would say UNC probably loved the idea of continuing with having the Conference Commissioner of the Conference they belong to being a UNC guy.

There were too many cultural issues in the end for a move to either the Big Ten or SEC and thus the ACC was solidified.

H1, what the heck are you are talking about here because you are responding out of context. Of course North Carolina's first preference was to stay in the ACC, but Maryland spurred conversations that reached the level I described above. When things solidified and looked more secure the whole thing was dropped. And as far as Cardinal Jim's post on another thread things were not solidified until Notre Dame came on board. They represented the kind of football branding that F.S.U. and Clemson were looking for, even if it was a partial one. How about reading my post before you assume there is SEC bragging going on. You don't hear that from me. All I stated was what the conference office had leaked during that time frame. The talks were real, the offers were real, but when the circumstances changed they were dropped. I think the point was when the chips were down Carolina's serious talks were with the SEC and nobody is claiming otherwise.

UNC/Duke/UVA/VT would be huge adds for us and would complete the foot print.

How realistic that is, I don't know but one day, thoseLums who want SEC will be in charge. Heck, a big part of our own move was due to overwhelming grass roots desire to get into the SEC. A lot of alums were like me in that when the SWC fell apart, we knew the SEC was our cultural and athletic home and couldn't stand that we were politically forced to join the Big 8, a conference we had nothing in common with. So when a second chance came along, the pitchforks and torches came out to tell our admin not to miss it.

Perhaps something similar will happen in Chapel Hill

(10-12-2013 08:35 AM)10thMountain Wrote: [ -> ]UNC/Duke/UVA/VT would be huge adds for us and would complete the foot print.

How realistic that is, I don't know but one day, thoseLums who want SEC will be in charge. Heck, a big part of our own move was due to overwhelming grass roots desire to get into the SEC. A lot of alums were like me in that when the SWC fell apart, we knew the SEC was our cultural and athletic home and couldn't stand that we were politically forced to join the Big 8, a conference we had nothing in common with. So when a second chance came along, the pitchforks and torches came out to tell our admin not to miss it.

Perhaps something similar will happen in Chapel Hill

I agree with this 10th, but A&M had an advantage that the North Carolina and Virginia schools don't have. You had Gene Stallings. Even as an Alabama coach he held the respect and admiration of Auburn people and that didn't happen with Bear, or Nick, or any of the others. Sure Auburn people respected Bear, but they didn't admire him, as most of us in a small state knew him, (I did), or knew of him, and we all knew him for what he was, a once in a lifetime football coach, but not a lot more than that. Stallings is just a fine human being. That came through again and again. Having someone of his integrity pushing A&M leadership in the direction of the SEC was a huge factor in favor of your joining.

North Carolina and Virginia don't have this in their favor, and especially in the case of Virginia they have been culturally overrun by the Washington political mindset, which face it, isn't the what the rest of the country is about. The Big 10 and SEC may both covet Virginia as a member, and may desire the market they would bring, but culturally speaking UVa doesn't fit anywhere any longer.

There are three large dynamics working against anybody in the ACC leaving to the SEC.


1) GoR

2) Long term revenue potential. By 2050, half the country will live in the ACC footprint. There aren't many TV sets in Mississippi. Even a low pick up rate through the ACC football is still bank if the ACC operates its own channel (which it is in the process of doing).

3) If you are serious about academics -- and holding your athletes to those same academic standards -- you are playing each week with two hands tied behind your back. You will have to lower your standards or you will never be successful.

(10-12-2013 09:24 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]There are three large dynamics working against anybody in the ACC leaving to the SEC.


1) GoR

2) Long term revenue potential. By 2050, half the country will live in the ACC footprint. There aren't many TV sets in Mississippi. Even a low pick up rate through the ACC football is still bank if the ACC operates its own channel (which it is in the process of doing).

3) If you are serious about academics -- and holding your athletes to those same academic standards -- you are playing each week with two hands tied behind your back. You will have to lower your standards or you will never be successful.

All valid points. As I stated on the CN&CR board I think the ACC is in for the long haul as a P4 conference. I don't believe that is the case for the Big 12. Personally having a healthy ACC is probably the best case scenario for the SEC's long term future anyway. You guys are the best buffer we can have to insulate the components upon which the SEC thrives and the two conferences have a good working relationship.

I do believe however that just as it was beneficial for Texas not to be so concentrated that North Carolina as a state could stand to lose two of its top 5 programs to bring more balance to the ACC by permitting its remaining state schools to concentrate talent and allow a couple of growth slots for an ACC footprint should a network come to fruition. Supporting 4 schools even in a conference of 16 means 1/4 of the asset allocation is in one state and that's not balance.

Right now SEC fans probably need to realize that it is everyone's interest to pitch in and locate the Big 12 teams elsewhere. The elimination of that conference would make the playoff format very amenable to 4 champions, and their slice of the pie would actually net all remaining schools in the P4 a little over 1 million more per year.

(10-12-2013 09:35 AM)JRsec Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-12-2013 09:24 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote: [ -> ]There are three large dynamics working against anybody in the ACC leaving to the SEC.


1) GoR

2) Long term revenue potential. By 2050, half the country will live in the ACC footprint. There aren't many TV sets in Mississippi. Even a low pick up rate through the ACC football is still bank if the ACC operates its own channel (which it is in the process of doing).

3) If you are serious about academics -- and holding your athletes to those same academic standards -- you are playing each week with two hands tied behind your back. You will have to lower your standards or you will never be successful.

All valid points. As I stated on the CN&CR board I think the ACC is in for the long haul as a P4 conference. I don't believe that is the case for the Big 12. Personally having a healthy ACC is probably the best case scenario for the SEC's long term future anyway. You guys are the best buffer we can have to insulate the components upon which the SEC thrives and the two conferences have a good working relationship.

I do believe however that just as it was beneficial for Texas not to be so concentrated that North Carolina as a state could stand to lose two of its top 5 programs to bring more balance to the ACC by permitting its remaining state schools to concentrate talent and allow a couple of growth slots for an ACC footprint should a network come to fruition. Supporting 4 schools even in a conference of 16 means 1/4 of the asset allocation is in one state and that's not balance.

Right now SEC fans probably need to realize that it is everyone's interest to pitch in and locate the Big 12 teams elsewhere. The elimination of that conference would make the playoff format very amenable to 4 champions, and their slice of the pie would actually net all remaining schools in the P4 a little over 1 million more per year.

Amen.

And yes, ACC fans can relax and breathe. The pressure is off as well as the bullseye.

Your champion, ESPN, has come through for you.

(10-11-2013 08:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote: [ -> ]UNC wasn't leaning SEC. Their fans were.

Then why wasn't their administration working out the same details with Delany?